To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.

Author Topic: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.  (Read 30617 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NEGuest

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« on: January 26, 2005, 10:35:44 AM »
This is a wonderful site, Kudos to all.

In short order I hope to be an Ez pilot with my own plane. But after lots of reading, I'm still struggling with whether to go for the Vari Eze or the Long Ez. I have a standard FAA body and fly only VFR along the Atlantic coast, 80% solo.

It seems I can maybe get a VEZ for maybe $15K and a LEZ for $25K. It seems to me that the VEZ gives you all of the thrill of the Rutan canard experience, but the LEZ is more docile and "updated". The wing joint corrosion/integrity issue and the small wheel/high landing speeds are detractions from the VEZ.

I would probably prefer the LEZ overall, but at $15K the VEZ is very attractive. I'd like to hear from experienced owner/pilots which way they would go if they did not already have a plane and were in my position.

Question 1) Vari-Eze or Long-Ez?
Question 2) Would the Klaus Savier trailing edge aileron fences make the VEZ almost as docile in landings as the LEZ? This might tiop the scale in favor of the VEZ.

I hope this post encourages freindly discussion and insult to none. Thanks.

Anonymous

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2005, 11:03:35 AM »
My first thought is I doubt the price difference would be that much.

For the basic fuselage/wings the Long-EZ will require more glass and epoxy but all other costs are about the same.
 Most of the fittings are the same. The wing attach fittings for the Varieze
will be more and nobody is producing them so you will need some custom
machine work. All other parts are available from Brock.

The engine O200 vs O320 will save you some but not 10K.

Varieze pros/cons:

Con:
Wing attach problem (both getting the fitting and long-term corrosion)
Gross weight(not an issue if you fly solo)
Lower resale value
Smaller cockpit/less panel space

Pro:
More of a sports car
Faster (if cleaned up)
Lower fuel flow for the same speed
Typical used plans are half the cost of the Long-EZ

It's a tough choice... each slightly better in someways,  but I'd go Long-EZ... no Varieze... no Long-EZ... yea it's a tough choice.

NEGuest

  • Guest
to vari or not
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2005, 12:38:59 PM »
Just to clarify, my intention is to purchase an already flying aircraft...not to build.

Offline Dan Patch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2005, 01:50:11 PM »
My first thought is I doubt the price difference would be that much.... etc.  The engine O200 vs O320 will save you some but not 10K...

The logic is reasonable, but it just isn't so for finished planes (vs. building, which I think is a source of confusion).  $15k for a VariEze is roughly mid, to low-mid range price.  $25k for a Long-EZ is low range, as best I currently understand pricing.  The spread between an O-200 VEZ and a O-320 LEZ in comparable condition will be significantly greater than $10k, I'm quite certain.  Check with Dave Orr if serious.  

The fences will help some, but the VariEze will still be faster landing than the LEZ.  Neither the VEZ or the LEZ will ever be short field or STOL - or confused with a J-3 or RV on landing!  

You can put Long-EZ size tires on a VariEze (or even bigger!) if you want, but why, since it only adds weight?  

The VariEze wing fitting corrosion problem is 99% not real (i.e., very, very few cases have been found) but it's the perception that counts in the market.  Actually, the price of VEZs has always been well below LEZ prices, and it's not clear that the 'corrosion problem' has significantly reduced already low VEZ resale prices.  

I suggest you check earlier posts on this forum for more VEZ vs. LEZ discussion.
DeltaPop
VariEze N862DP
(@1970 hrs)

Anonymous

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2005, 01:53:52 PM »
Oops! I missed that.  Nevermind.

If you're buying, to me it's a dollar decision if the Varieze
fits your needs I'd go for the Vari. There is no doubt they are
great deals right now. Just be sure it's checked out by an experienced builder.

You can buy a lot of fun stuff for the panel for the 10K difference.

And I think the price gap may be even bigger than 10K, more like 15K.

NEGuest

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2005, 02:39:23 PM »
The $25K LEZ is a basic VFR panel, O-235 model...therefore a little less than an O-320. The trend is for the bigger engines, but I think the O-235 will do fine for me.

That's good to hear an endorsement for the trailing edge fences on the VEZ.

Yes, the approx. $10K savings is very significant to me! Yet for significant improvement or safety, I would gladly pay the extra $10K for the LEZ. I'm just trying to figure out if the LEZ is really that much improvement over an otherwise fine aircraft.

The comment about VEZs having low prices even before the wing joint issue is very interesting. I had thought it was the wing joint and Mike Melville (on the RAF site) saying to limit planes to 2.5G's that has caused the low prices, but I guess not so.

As a potential buyer, my perception is that the VEZ had so many "corrections" to it (e.g. addition of ailerons, shortening of canard, reduction of rudder throws, upgrading to LEZ main gear, etc) that when RAF came out with the LEZ, the VEZ was abandoned by the marketplace.  It seems the VEZ was the learning curve for the LEZ, which makes it a tad more difficult for the purchaser of a pre-owned VEZ to determine how up to date a particular VEZ was built. Perhaps this is why it has had perpetually lower resale. I just don't know.

I'll search for more threads on VEZ vs LEZ. It ultimately may be a personal decision, but it would still help to continue hearing opinions from active pilots.

Anonymous

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2005, 02:50:21 PM »
Here's a thought:

Look at the pictures of the corroded Varieze wing attach fittings on the yahoo canard page.  In particular, look at how nice the normally visible portion of the fitting appears, then look at the horror that was hidden by micro.

After viewing these pictures, if you are able to feel comfortable, confident, and safe in a Varieze with parts that you cannot adequately inspect without partially destructive disassembly (check under the spar caps too), strongly consider the Varieze to be the better buy.

NEGuest

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2005, 03:35:53 PM »
Yikes  :shock: Well, I guess that seals the issue. Yet, as a nonbuilder, it is hard to know/understand the makeup of the assembly being shown. I thought that was the issue with only one or two birds. There is no way to know for sure without destructive dissassembly?

Anonymous

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2005, 04:20:58 PM »
"There is no way to know for sure without destructive dissassembly?"

No.  My rationale as follows:

Owners (and in particular builder/owners) must rely on the history of construction (was the aluminum correctly prepped etc) and the history of operation/storage (was the airframe exposed to an environment conducive for corrosion production) to determine if there is corrosion in the airframe in areas that cannot be inspected without partial disassembly of the fittings about the spar caps.  Aside from the history, they can feel good about the integrity of the fittings, at least in the relatively small percentage area of the fittings that they can inspect without tearing up the plane.

ALL Varieze operators rely on the THEORY that the corrosion problems out there are EXCLUSIVELY the result of poor construction and/or poor subsequent storage/operation.

Until a number of Variezes have received sufficient inspection (including under the spar caps) to produce statistically significant evidence (scientific terminology intended) that this corrosion problem is not present in properly built and operated Variezes, I personally would NOT feel comfortable with one of these planes.

I personally feel that Burt Rutan has abandoned the Varieze community on this SIGNIFICANT problem.  I also feel that most in this community have jumped on the bandwagon supporting Burt when questions arise about RAF responsibility to develop a fix, and furthermore attribute poor workmanship and storage as being the sole culprit in this problem.  Operators without a corrosion problem say things like “this is a problem of 1% of Variezes, and even then it is the builder/operator’s fault.”  Burt is a great man, but this free ticket I think is unwarranted given the significance of the problem.  Burt has a cadre of engineers (not including himself) who could develop a fix for this problem, but he has chosen not to, and furthermore is closing shop at RAF (link to the corrosion problem?).

I am anonymous in this post, but I own a LongEz and have been in this community for a long while.  Believe me, I otherwise admire Burt Rutan as one of history’s greatest achievers.  I also strongly believe that there will be an asterisk after his name in the history books after one or more Variezes crash due to a wing attach fitting corrosion problem.

NEGuest

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2005, 06:52:44 PM »
Thanks for your candor. I see this can be a sensitive issue, especially to proud owners of the VEZ type. As you imply, a builder has a great advantage in knowing the history of the aircraft. A new buyer unfortunately looses some if not all of this critical history and can easily wind up with an unknown risk. This is true of all composite homebuilts, but especially true of those with a strongly suspected problem.

Although a different topic, I do see what you say about my Heroes at RAF. It may be that short of a central spar and wing rebuild, there is nothing else that can be done. Otherwise, I would believe there is enough moral integrity in the Rutan enterprises to have done something about it. It may be a time bomb. The lesson for me, as an engineer, is to avoid designing imbedded, critical parts that cannot be dissassembled for inspection or replacement. Except for the unavoidable hardpoints in the glass, I don't think the LongEz has such a critical part, does it?

Guest 38

  • Guest
To Varieze or not
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2005, 10:23:36 PM »
As a Varieze owner, builder and pilot for 24 years, I would be very suspect in any Varieze that sat outside in the rain and weather for any length of time. If it has been hangered and the exposed aluminum fittings and thru bolts have been properly greased and inspected, I would feel just as comfortable as picking a LongEz.
Now as far as landing and touch down speed, I disagree with those that think a LongEz will land slower and shorter than a Varieze. I don't believe that I am any better a pilot than the average Ez type, but I land and virtually always turn off at the first intersection while most every LongEz will go another 1500 feet down to the next turn off.
I have done various mods to lower my touchdown speed as much as possible, but it has always been  between 65 to 70 mph at touchdown. Also, I can come down final at 80 mph at a much steeper angle than any LongEz that I have seen.
The other flying qualities are very similar. But I burn 4 gal per hour at 150 mph cruise!!  Not giving up on the Varieze!!

g

  • Guest
wow
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2005, 01:40:35 AM »
:shock:  please show ALL OF US varieze flyers...your 65 mph landing and turn at the first turn maneuver...please......after flying eze's fpr 11 years  i still have to see a eze land (smoothly/ normal)like a cessna,piper...etc...like i said wow!  pls introduce yourself at any canard gathering.
   buying a VARIEZE OR LONG EZE  is like buying old cars...Just because you heard one was one sold for $2500  in does not mean all old cars (of the same model/year)  are worth $2500....
  the article on the mandatory ground..of variezes have been blown out of proportion.. .by  prospective buyers..usually UNFAMILIAR buyers...
  just like what i said.earlier,, because one has bad wing attach bolts....it doesnt mean....all varieze...have bad..wing attach bolts.

Offline Drew

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
    • http://home.earthlink.net/~swensonaw/
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2005, 06:28:12 PM »
<snip>Now as far as landing and touch down speed, I disagree with those that think a LongEz will land slower and shorter than a Varieze. I don't believe that I am any better a pilot than the average Ez type, but I land and virtually always turn off at the first intersection while most every LongEz will go another 1500 feet down to the next turn off. <snip>

I feel comfortable landing on 2000 ft runways in my Longez (don't be doing this as a new guy---get experience and work your way down) but if I land on a 3000ft strip, you will probably see me roll out to the end
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Guest 38

  • Guest
Re: wow
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2005, 10:46:42 PM »
Quote from: "g"
:shock:  please show ALL OF US varieze flyers...your 65 mph landing and turn at the first turn maneuver...please......after flying eze's fpr 11 years  i still have to see a eze land (smoothly/ normal)like a cessna,piper...etc...like i said wow!  pls introduce yourself at any canard gathering.
   
I have made several mods to get my landing speed down to 65 mph, maybe my rpm will go lower than yours and a lower final speed, maybe I live at a lower denser elevation than you, but maybe I just AM better than at least one other Varieze pilot!!  
Guest38

G

  • Guest
To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2005, 12:02:21 AM »
8)  Actually  you are claiming to a better eze pilot than all of us, NOT JUST ONE...MAYBE...
  PLEASE INTRODUCE YOURSELF.  AND ALL OF US LESSER EZE PILOTS..CAN LEARN FROM YOUR  "BETTERNESS". :shock: