Print Page - To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.

Hangar Flying

Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 10:35:44 AM

Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 10:35:44 AM
This is a wonderful site, Kudos to all.

In short order I hope to be an Ez pilot with my own plane. But after lots of reading, I'm still struggling with whether to go for the Vari Eze or the Long Ez. I have a standard FAA body and fly only VFR along the Atlantic coast, 80% solo.

It seems I can maybe get a VEZ for maybe $15K and a LEZ for $25K. It seems to me that the VEZ gives you all of the thrill of the Rutan canard experience, but the LEZ is more docile and "updated". The wing joint corrosion/integrity issue and the small wheel/high landing speeds are detractions from the VEZ.

I would probably prefer the LEZ overall, but at $15K the VEZ is very attractive. I'd like to hear from experienced owner/pilots which way they would go if they did not already have a plane and were in my position.

Question 1) Vari-Eze or Long-Ez?
Question 2) Would the Klaus Savier trailing edge aileron fences make the VEZ almost as docile in landings as the LEZ? This might tiop the scale in favor of the VEZ.

I hope this post encourages freindly discussion and insult to none. Thanks.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 11:03:35 AM
My first thought is I doubt the price difference would be that much.

For the basic fuselage/wings the Long-EZ will require more glass and epoxy but all other costs are about the same.
 Most of the fittings are the same. The wing attach fittings for the Varieze
will be more and nobody is producing them so you will need some custom
machine work. All other parts are available from Brock.

The engine O200 vs O320 will save you some but not 10K.

Varieze pros/cons:

Con:
Wing attach problem (both getting the fitting and long-term corrosion)
Gross weight(not an issue if you fly solo)
Lower resale value
Smaller cockpit/less panel space

Pro:
More of a sports car
Faster (if cleaned up)
Lower fuel flow for the same speed
Typical used plans are half the cost of the Long-EZ

It's a tough choice... each slightly better in someways,  but I'd go Long-EZ... no Varieze... no Long-EZ... yea it's a tough choice.
Title: to vari or not
Post by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 12:38:59 PM
Just to clarify, my intention is to purchase an already flying aircraft...not to build.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Dan Patch on January 26, 2005, 01:50:11 PM
My first thought is I doubt the price difference would be that much.... etc.  The engine O200 vs O320 will save you some but not 10K...

The logic is reasonable, but it just isn't so for finished planes (vs. building, which I think is a source of confusion).  $15k for a VariEze is roughly mid, to low-mid range price.  $25k for a Long-EZ is low range, as best I currently understand pricing.  The spread between an O-200 VEZ and a O-320 LEZ in comparable condition will be significantly greater than $10k, I'm quite certain.  Check with Dave Orr if serious.  

The fences will help some, but the VariEze will still be faster landing than the LEZ.  Neither the VEZ or the LEZ will ever be short field or STOL - or confused with a J-3 or RV on landing!  

You can put Long-EZ size tires on a VariEze (or even bigger!) if you want, but why, since it only adds weight?  

The VariEze wing fitting corrosion problem is 99% not real (i.e., very, very few cases have been found) but it's the perception that counts in the market.  Actually, the price of VEZs has always been well below LEZ prices, and it's not clear that the 'corrosion problem' has significantly reduced already low VEZ resale prices.  

I suggest you check earlier posts on this forum for more VEZ vs. LEZ discussion.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 01:53:52 PM
Oops! I missed that.  Nevermind.

If you're buying, to me it's a dollar decision if the Varieze
fits your needs I'd go for the Vari. There is no doubt they are
great deals right now. Just be sure it's checked out by an experienced builder.

You can buy a lot of fun stuff for the panel for the 10K difference.

And I think the price gap may be even bigger than 10K, more like 15K.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 02:39:23 PM
The $25K LEZ is a basic VFR panel, O-235 model...therefore a little less than an O-320. The trend is for the bigger engines, but I think the O-235 will do fine for me.

That's good to hear an endorsement for the trailing edge fences on the VEZ.

Yes, the approx. $10K savings is very significant to me! Yet for significant improvement or safety, I would gladly pay the extra $10K for the LEZ. I'm just trying to figure out if the LEZ is really that much improvement over an otherwise fine aircraft.

The comment about VEZs having low prices even before the wing joint issue is very interesting. I had thought it was the wing joint and Mike Melville (on the RAF site) saying to limit planes to 2.5G's that has caused the low prices, but I guess not so.

As a potential buyer, my perception is that the VEZ had so many "corrections" to it (e.g. addition of ailerons, shortening of canard, reduction of rudder throws, upgrading to LEZ main gear, etc) that when RAF came out with the LEZ, the VEZ was abandoned by the marketplace.  It seems the VEZ was the learning curve for the LEZ, which makes it a tad more difficult for the purchaser of a pre-owned VEZ to determine how up to date a particular VEZ was built. Perhaps this is why it has had perpetually lower resale. I just don't know.

I'll search for more threads on VEZ vs LEZ. It ultimately may be a personal decision, but it would still help to continue hearing opinions from active pilots.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 02:50:21 PM
Here's a thought:

Look at the pictures of the corroded Varieze wing attach fittings on the yahoo canard page.  In particular, look at how nice the normally visible portion of the fitting appears, then look at the horror that was hidden by micro.

After viewing these pictures, if you are able to feel comfortable, confident, and safe in a Varieze with parts that you cannot adequately inspect without partially destructive disassembly (check under the spar caps too), strongly consider the Varieze to be the better buy.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 03:35:53 PM
Yikes  :shock: Well, I guess that seals the issue. Yet, as a nonbuilder, it is hard to know/understand the makeup of the assembly being shown. I thought that was the issue with only one or two birds. There is no way to know for sure without destructive dissassembly?
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 04:20:58 PM
"There is no way to know for sure without destructive dissassembly?"

No.  My rationale as follows:

Owners (and in particular builder/owners) must rely on the history of construction (was the aluminum correctly prepped etc) and the history of operation/storage (was the airframe exposed to an environment conducive for corrosion production) to determine if there is corrosion in the airframe in areas that cannot be inspected without partial disassembly of the fittings about the spar caps.  Aside from the history, they can feel good about the integrity of the fittings, at least in the relatively small percentage area of the fittings that they can inspect without tearing up the plane.

ALL Varieze operators rely on the THEORY that the corrosion problems out there are EXCLUSIVELY the result of poor construction and/or poor subsequent storage/operation.

Until a number of Variezes have received sufficient inspection (including under the spar caps) to produce statistically significant evidence (scientific terminology intended) that this corrosion problem is not present in properly built and operated Variezes, I personally would NOT feel comfortable with one of these planes.

I personally feel that Burt Rutan has abandoned the Varieze community on this SIGNIFICANT problem.  I also feel that most in this community have jumped on the bandwagon supporting Burt when questions arise about RAF responsibility to develop a fix, and furthermore attribute poor workmanship and storage as being the sole culprit in this problem.  Operators without a corrosion problem say things like “this is a problem of 1% of Variezes, and even then it is the builder/operator’s fault.”  Burt is a great man, but this free ticket I think is unwarranted given the significance of the problem.  Burt has a cadre of engineers (not including himself) who could develop a fix for this problem, but he has chosen not to, and furthermore is closing shop at RAF (link to the corrosion problem?).

I am anonymous in this post, but I own a LongEz and have been in this community for a long while.  Believe me, I otherwise admire Burt Rutan as one of history’s greatest achievers.  I also strongly believe that there will be an asterisk after his name in the history books after one or more Variezes crash due to a wing attach fitting corrosion problem.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on January 26, 2005, 06:52:44 PM
Thanks for your candor. I see this can be a sensitive issue, especially to proud owners of the VEZ type. As you imply, a builder has a great advantage in knowing the history of the aircraft. A new buyer unfortunately looses some if not all of this critical history and can easily wind up with an unknown risk. This is true of all composite homebuilts, but especially true of those with a strongly suspected problem.

Although a different topic, I do see what you say about my Heroes at RAF. It may be that short of a central spar and wing rebuild, there is nothing else that can be done. Otherwise, I would believe there is enough moral integrity in the Rutan enterprises to have done something about it. It may be a time bomb. The lesson for me, as an engineer, is to avoid designing imbedded, critical parts that cannot be dissassembled for inspection or replacement. Except for the unavoidable hardpoints in the glass, I don't think the LongEz has such a critical part, does it?
Title: To Varieze or not
Post by: Guest 38 on January 26, 2005, 10:23:36 PM
As a Varieze owner, builder and pilot for 24 years, I would be very suspect in any Varieze that sat outside in the rain and weather for any length of time. If it has been hangered and the exposed aluminum fittings and thru bolts have been properly greased and inspected, I would feel just as comfortable as picking a LongEz.
Now as far as landing and touch down speed, I disagree with those that think a LongEz will land slower and shorter than a Varieze. I don't believe that I am any better a pilot than the average Ez type, but I land and virtually always turn off at the first intersection while most every LongEz will go another 1500 feet down to the next turn off.
I have done various mods to lower my touchdown speed as much as possible, but it has always been  between 65 to 70 mph at touchdown. Also, I can come down final at 80 mph at a much steeper angle than any LongEz that I have seen.
The other flying qualities are very similar. But I burn 4 gal per hour at 150 mph cruise!!  Not giving up on the Varieze!!
Title: wow
Post by: g on January 27, 2005, 01:40:35 AM
:shock:  please show ALL OF US varieze flyers...your 65 mph landing and turn at the first turn maneuver...please......after flying eze's fpr 11 years  i still have to see a eze land (smoothly/ normal)like a cessna,piper...etc...like i said wow!  pls introduce yourself at any canard gathering.
   buying a VARIEZE OR LONG EZE  is like buying old cars...Just because you heard one was one sold for $2500  in does not mean all old cars (of the same model/year)  are worth $2500....
  the article on the mandatory ground..of variezes have been blown out of proportion.. .by  prospective buyers..usually UNFAMILIAR buyers...
  just like what i said.earlier,, because one has bad wing attach bolts....it doesnt mean....all varieze...have bad..wing attach bolts.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Drew on January 27, 2005, 06:28:12 PM
<snip>Now as far as landing and touch down speed, I disagree with those that think a LongEz will land slower and shorter than a Varieze. I don't believe that I am any better a pilot than the average Ez type, but I land and virtually always turn off at the first intersection while most every LongEz will go another 1500 feet down to the next turn off. <snip>

I feel comfortable landing on 2000 ft runways in my Longez (don't be doing this as a new guy---get experience and work your way down) but if I land on a 3000ft strip, you will probably see me roll out to the end
Title: Re: wow
Post by: Guest 38 on January 27, 2005, 10:46:42 PM
Quote from: "g"
:shock:  please show ALL OF US varieze flyers...your 65 mph landing and turn at the first turn maneuver...please......after flying eze's fpr 11 years  i still have to see a eze land (smoothly/ normal)like a cessna,piper...etc...like i said wow!  pls introduce yourself at any canard gathering.
   
I have made several mods to get my landing speed down to 65 mph, maybe my rpm will go lower than yours and a lower final speed, maybe I live at a lower denser elevation than you, but maybe I just AM better than at least one other Varieze pilot!!  
Guest38
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: G on January 28, 2005, 12:02:21 AM
8)  Actually  you are claiming to a better eze pilot than all of us, NOT JUST ONE...MAYBE...
  PLEASE INTRODUCE YOURSELF.  AND ALL OF US LESSER EZE PILOTS..CAN LEARN FROM YOUR  "BETTERNESS". :shock:
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on January 28, 2005, 08:43:23 AM
Hi Guest38,
I was wondering if one of your significant mods was to add trailing edge aileron fences?

Also, would it not be possible to X-ray the wing joint to determine soundness? If so, someone out there with the proper equipment could do a little business checking out Vez wing joint and other parts in other composites.
Title: eze
Post by: dave on January 28, 2005, 03:58:07 PM
:D
   hi guys,
        IF you want to know what the condition of of the inside of the wing attachments "might be"  why not look at OUTSIDE ...the exposed part, it  will Tell you a lot about what the condition of the UNDERNEATH is.
           a few years ago i helped in repainting/ restoring  a "mooney mite"..which was wood wrapped in fiberglass.15 years ago ..the outside was BAD..really bad it was left out in the sun and sat for 3 years until my frind bought it... we had to cut some pieces..open to inpect the wood ....underneath  and   the wood  was "LIKE NEW"....
   Fiberglass is a fantastic sealant against weather ..unless water can "GET IN"  its only the outside that will "look bad"...nothing sanding and micro cant fix...
  i do agree that the Article on the "mandatory ground" has been taken way out of proportion...it has actually Hurt the  reputation of the VEZ in the "wrongest" of ways....check the outside first.
    :lol:
Title: Re: eze
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 04:45:16 PM
quote="dave
   hi guys,  IF you want to know what the condition of of the inside of the wing attachments "might be"  why not look at OUTSIDE ..."

Dave,

This logic is about as perfect an example of Einstein's "Information is not knowledge" statement is as possible.

Take a close look at the pictures on the net of the corroded wing attach fittings.  Note that the EXPOSED areas look GOOD and the HIDDEN areas are TRASH.
Title: Varieze mods
Post by: Guest 38 on January 28, 2005, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: "NEGuest"
Hi Guest38,
I was wondering if one of your significant mods was to add trailing edge aileron fences?

Also, would it not be possible to X-ray the wing joint to determine soundness? If so, someone out there with the proper equipment could do a little business checking out Vez wing joint and other parts in other composites.


Hi,
Yes, the wing fences were the last mod, but  they didn't make as much difference as LongEz style lower winglets. They really stabilized the slow speed on final.
However, I expect that any Varieze built for max high speed, eg. bigger engine, lots of prop thrust, etc. will have a tough time on getting a real slow touchdown speed.
Happy to give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question by a reasonable person!!
I don't have a clue about hi-tech equipment to check for corrosion. Surface corrosion looks like it would be tough to see other than visually.
Guest38
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 08:59:13 PM
Quote from: "NEGuest"
Hi Guest38,
I was wondering if one of your significant mods was to add trailing edge aileron fences?

Also, would it not be possible to X-ray the wing joint to determine soundness? If so, someone out there with the proper equipment could do a little business checking out Vez wing joint and other parts in other composites.


SEE MY RESPONSE BELOW
Guest38
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 09:00:32 PM
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 09:20:54 PM
Maybe your airspeed indicator is not calibrated correctly and you just think you are that good.
Title: eze
Post by: dave on January 28, 2005, 09:36:11 PM
TO THE guest that quoted einstein
 
     i have seen the pix..of the corroded wing attach fittings..INFACT  I KNOW WHO REBUILT THAT PARTICULAR PLANE.( shady person never flew it)  ..that plane also had a CHRONIC GAS TANK LEAK ...IT TRANSFERED ANOTHER 2 OWNERS AFTER THAT. i live in that area.
..      
       and NO !THE EXPOSED PART WAS NOT GOOD...the TApered shims where highly corroded (outside),,,and there was a lot of  small screws...all over the main fittings...ONCE AGAIN ON THE OUTSIDE.....the inside corrosion was due to the FACT THAT THAT WING...HAS HAD A  ACCIDENT  AND WAS REBUILT...IMPROPERLY USING OLD CORRODED WING FITTINGS TO START WITH.......OK  EINSTEIN?
  EINSTEIN QUOTE WAS REFERING  TO  INFORMATION BEING INCOMPLETE, and that REAL KNOWLEDGE  comes with ALL the RIGHT information.  you dont have to be Einstein to know that. :roll:
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 12:22:25 PM
Ok enough is enough..

There is too much mudslinging happening here..

For the person that wants to buy the VE,, well I personally have one and think its a great little plane. There has been a few VE's with corrosion in the wing attachments but it is limited to a few planes, I for one would be more concerned if the elevators are correct!

As for the "g" limitation, well that has nothing to do with corrosion. thats a poor layup problem that can exist in the Long as well. (Dry Layup)

Find and airplane, get it inspected, inspect it some more.  go flying!
its as simple as that.

One word of advice, if you can buy a plane from the builder.. DO IT!!

Avoid the plane that has had 10 owners..

Give me a call if you want to talk

Tom

403 607 8457.
Title: VariEze or Not, that is the question
Post by: miketdrew on January 31, 2005, 11:55:19 PM
NEGuest

The original requirement you mapped out pretty much matched my requirements when I was trying to decide between the two.  But additionally, portability was one of my main factors in reaching a final decision.  No one has mentioned one of the features that was designed into the VariEze Vs Long-Ez –  portability.  

At the time, (turned out to be true for me) I thought it would be important to be able to do maintenance in the comfort and proximity of my garage and still easily transport the plane to the airport.  For the first couple of years I had a 15’ enclosed trailer for transport and airport hanger.  When I had a project, I’d haul it home to my garage.   On my own, I could take the wings and canard off and roll it into the trailer in 30-40 minutes, ten minutes less when off loading.  That worked fine until I finally figured out that a VariEze easily fits (without removing the wings or canard) into half sized hanger.   The half T hangers go for less than half the price of a full size one in my area.   Sold the trailer (= new eznoselift and electrical system) and plan to rent a trailer when I want to bring it home.

By the way the T.E. fences were very effective on my plane.  I’ve enjoyed making lots of other mods that help with comfort, operation and systems.  
Not much I can add about the wing attach corrosion, since mine has glider type attach system.
 
I find the sitting arrangement one of the most comfortable of any aircraft I’ve flown (6’2’’ 185#), but have no interest in spending more than  5-hrs in the seat of any plane, no matter how comfortable.  

Like you, I find that I fly 80% of the time solo, so the back seat provides enough baggage space (including golf clubs) for my needs.  

To date I have about 125hrs, 120 flights and 150 landings.  I’ve loved every minute of it, the best bang for the buck (fun and economic) that I have found.  Can’t think of any spam can that I’ve owned or flown that is such a joy.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on February 01, 2005, 08:47:55 AM
I've been learning a lot from this thread. I'm getting more convinced the EZ community is really special.

I will be checking out a Vari Eze this weekend to see it first hand. I think that if one could get reasonable confidence over the wing joint corrosion issue, the VEZ has to be one of the best values out there. Ultimately, you gotta trust the builder and the history of the ship and go with your own gut instinct on the mettalurgy...something one has to be willing to do with the VEZ. The easy trailability is a definate advantage, especially when storing for the winter.

However, the LongEz has it own set of advantages that I'm concluding are worth a $10k differential. Slower landings without mods, shorter landing & take off rolls, more docile handling, greater payload capability, updated design and stuctures are some of the more important advantages.

If I already had a VEZ, I'd probably be very happy with it. But since I'm still in a position to make a choice, this has been a worthwhile exercise.
Title: VEwings
Post by: daffy on February 01, 2005, 01:10:18 PM
Could Miketdrew send some pictures on this forum of his VE wing attach system ?
The glider one's, and tell us what he think about them.
Why Burt did abort this well working idea ? :roll:
Many thanks
Title: Re: VEwings
Post by: Dan Patch on February 01, 2005, 04:07:04 PM
Quote from: "daffy"

Why Burt did abort this well working idea....

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that it's accurate to state that Burt "aborted" this wing attachment method.  I believe that it was developed independently (maybe by Fred Juran?) well after the VariEze plans were released.  Since Burt neither developed nor tested this wing attach method, clearly he could not endorse this approach.  However, I do not recall that Burt ever said "don't do this" like he did for other modifications that he regarded as poor practice, risky, or unproven.  A search in past Canard Pusher newsletters probably would clarify this issue further, but I'll leave that to 'inquiring minds that want to know'.
Title: Vari Eze or Not, that is the question
Post by: miketdrew on February 01, 2005, 09:16:51 PM
You can see a few on my website michaeltdrew.com under Jiran Wing & Spar, some of these same photos were copied by someone into canard aviator’s yahoo group’s photo section.  I think Jiran's system adds about 30-40 lbs over the standard tabs.  As Dan point out, If you look up Jiran in the early CP's you'll find a thread on the wings and at the end of development and testing (loaded to 7.5 g's w/o failure) Burt abruptly states he would not recommend them.  I understand that their is more to the story, because just as abruptly Jiran was no longer a major supplier of components for RAF.  I got the sense when I was researching the concept that their may be a dozen flying VE with Jiran Wing and Spar components.
Title: VE Wings
Post by: daffy on February 02, 2005, 06:24:26 AM
Thanks Mike and Dan, I will search in my CP's some more datas about this mysterious story of Jiran's attach system. 8)  (7,5 G not breaking...)
Too good to be true. :shock:
It's too late to talk about the past, let's look forward and try to find a solution.
The picts are very small on the Mike's site and difficult to use for technical research.
I'll be happy to find ( to buy also) plans to study this system and find the way to rebuilt from previous model. An engineer could be hired to work on it.
I'm sure it could be appreciate by dozen of Vari-BOB (builders/owners/buyers). Me the first...
God save the Varieze ! :D
Title: An alternative idea...
Post by: ANOTHER NEGuest on February 19, 2005, 10:57:30 AM
NEGuest...

Here's another idea:

Why not find another pilot and share the cost of an airplane? That way you get more airplane for your money, shared expenses, etc.

The downside is that you can't fly anytime you like.

I might be in the market for a used LongEZ sometime in the next few years and this is one way I'd be willing to go.

I'm in Bridgeport, CT, just a few miles from KBDR.

Where are you?
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: NEGuest on March 01, 2005, 10:27:03 AM
Another NEGuest...

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm in a partnership right now with a spam can and the partnership is a major reason I've decided to go solo with my next plane. For me, it is better to own less plane solo than more plane with partners.

I've been in the partnership for over 8 years and depending on who the  partners are and their current moods, I've had years of excellent, cheap flying and comradeship and also periods of despair. Amazing how a short periods of despair can erase years of fun. Time on the plane was never an issue. Differing and personality oriented interpretations of how a "partial owner" should behave have caused issues.

At any rate, if you can find a long term, like-minded partner then go for it. A plane is an excellent resource to share time and expenses on and probably will be in better continual flying shape as a result of the more frequent flying.
Title: To Vari Eze or Not, that is the question.
Post by: Waiter on March 01, 2005, 10:50:15 AM
I've owned several planes in partnerships. I think the key to a good partnership, is a good agreement IN WRITING.  This is probably even more important if close friends are involved.

Although my EZ is not in a partnership (I'm to closely attached to it, as I built it).  I would certianly consider a partnership if I were planning on purchasing one.  A good written agreement would decide ahead of time, responsibilities, use, whose turn it is, etc.

I've only had one occation were I wanted to fly, and the plane wasn't available (wasn't my week anyway). And only one incident were we had to break out the written agreement, to determine if the partnership was responsible for the cost of retrieving a stranded airplane. (The Agreement said the plane was to be maintained as VFR. The Stranding was related to a VOR that didn't meet IFR specification, The person who stranded the plane was responsible to retrieve it.)

Verbal agreements are as good as the paper they're written on! I'll see if I can find a copy of the agreement and post it on my web site (www.iflyez.com) :)

Waiter
Title: PArtnership Agreement
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005, 12:00:43 PM
I put a sample partnership agreement up on my web site.  This is basically the agreement adopted in every partnership I've been in.  Its workable and fair.

www.iflyez.com

Waiter