VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526

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Offline fpullanojr

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« on: December 23, 2005, 10:29:42 AM »
I was just browsing Ebay and found a varieze up for sale.  It has two bids on it at this time but the auction description concerns me.  The numbers that the seller quotes for performance are numbers close to what klaus might post for his plane.  I did send the seller an email through ebay asking him/her? about those numbers and I could be wrong about all of it.  I suppose my problem (if I'm right) is that putting the plane up on ebay allows anyone to bid on it which means that the seller isn't all that concerned about who it goes to. Worse yet, the potential buyer could be getting into something that isn't nearly what the auction states.  Like I said, I could be SO WRONG but I doubt that I am.

Here's the jist of the data supplied:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4599234526
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1978 varieze with a lycoming 0-235 L2C engine.
airframe 240 hrs.
engine TT 1160 hrs.
Slick mags
new battery
speed brake
climb prop.

Top Speed -- 220 mph  
Cruise -- 190 mph  
Range, s.m. -- 1000  
Stall, mph -- 55  
Takeoff Distance, ft. -- 750  
Landing Distance, ft. -- 1000  
Engine Used -- Lyc. 0-235 L2C --
HP Range -- 118  
Fuel Capacity, gal. -- 29  
Empty Weight, lbs. -- 620  
Gross Weight, lbs. -- 1250.
Instruments:
Airspeed,
Altimeter,
Turn Coordinator
Compass
RPM Gauge
Exhaust Temperature
Oil Temperature
Oil Pressure,
Nav/Com Radio
Hobbs Meter.
Trim systems are Yaw, Pitch and Roll.
The aircraft fuel burn at cruise is 6 gals. an hr. and uses 100 LL.

------------------------------------------------------------
Top Speed 220 MPH?  With a climb prop?
TO Distance 750 feet?  Under normal conditions?
CRUISE @ 190 MPH? With a climb prop?
IF and that's a BIG IF the airplane will cruise at 190 MPH, the seller states that he can hold 29 gallons of gas.  That's 4.83 hours total endurance minus the 30 minute reserve brings endurance down to 4.3 hours.  4.3 hours at 190MPH (ugg) is 817 SM range.  That's at 6 GPH.  All of those numbers with slick mags no electronic ignition, no mention of a ram air system or 4 pipe exhaust.  No speed mods noted but a pretty light weight plane.

It's not that I'm trying to discredit the seller or his airplane.  My problem is that I think those performance numbers are probably inaccurate and that's a bad thing.  I just sold my VariEze to a guy at Langley AFB and he knew EXACTLY what he was getting into.  Everything was disclosed to all potential buyers including the little quirks that the plane has.  This plane still has wing cuffs on it, no vortions, no fences...  It just doesn't add up.

So If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to say that I'm very sorry for posting this message but If I'm correct in my assumptions, then I would hope the seller would correct the description of the airplane and make sure people know what they are getting into.  I feel that we have a responsibilty to be honest and also somewhat selective whith people when we are selling our planes.  There were a number of guys that made offers on my plane and I simply told them that I would not sell it to them for one reason or another.  One guy that had just received his PPL wanted to come and pick up the plane; his first flight was going to be back out to Arizona with the plane.  Another guy was going to keep the plane on a costal airport in North Carilina but not in a hangar.  I warned him against doing that with a canard even though I know there are canards that live outside - not my baby.  Take it for what it's worth, sorry for the long post it just annoyed me quite allot.

- Frank Pullano Jr
  BerkEZ N97JD
- Frank Pullano Jr
  BerkEZ N97JD
  Sandord Orlando FL (KSFB)

Offline spy

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varieze on ebay
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2005, 12:47:03 PM »
hello everyone,
 
  i come here after a days work to read on updates and news, and to relax but seems to me that  some PEOPLE might be turning it INTo a
 Complaint department.. FOR other people....it EATS away on MORALE of this place.
   i have never seen or heard about the vari on ebay...I  HAVE NEVER flown it or sat behind it.., i DO NOT know who the builder or the owner IS..i have no first hand experience on this plane
  I have NO RIGHT or Business  to make judgements about it.
  I have no RIGHT  to PLACE  "WARNING ADS" about its  SPECS
     IT IS NOBODYS BUSINESS. BUT THE BUYER AND THE SELLER
     i know a few people who would not DARE  sell there canards here , because of this .UNFAIR PHENOMENON.
  Lets keep eze.org..a fun and nice place it has always  :cry: been.

Offline Drew

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2005, 02:54:06 PM »
I sure don't mind getting getting warnings---especially from an experienced Varieze driver like Frank Pullano.  He should be able to quickly size up a Varieze by its description and looks better than most.

There are a lot of sellers that will sell to anybody----we need to be careful of this----it is my business-----the new buyer's action with the new plane can effect my insurance rates-------sellers---heed Frank's warnings.

There are a lot of buyers who don't really know what they are buying.  Each buyer should know exactly what he is getting.  There is nothing wrong with buying or selling a dog of an airplane.  The seller needs to convey this point-----or he could end up hurting someone.  These are not cars that we are flying.

As to the specifics (not being a Varieze guy like Frank though)
--cuffs----hmmmm
--engine time high----but I prefer buying high time engines so I can get a lower price and overhaul the engine myself to my own standards
--top speed.  I interpret this to be the max speed of the aircraft not in level flight (red line)----but the buyer needs to be made aware of this
--cruise speed.  It does not seem that 190 mph TAS is that unreasonable with a O235 engine on a light frame----but then again, I would defer to Frank------the climb prop thing seems kind of weird for the speed though (isn't Klaus in the 240ish mph TAS range?)
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline fpullanojr

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 05:17:25 PM »
Spy said, "IT IS NOBODYS BUSINESS. BUT THE BUYER AND THE SELLER
"

Sir, I respectfully disagree with you on this point.  It is certainly everyone's business to waive the bs flag when it is warranted.  I said it in my post, I'd be the first guy to stand up and say that I was wrong.  In fact, if I'm wrong about that plane I'd buy it!

Consider for a moment that your best friend wanted to buy an EZ and you knew (or suspected) that it simply wasn't up to the advertisement of the aircraft.  You wouldn't tell him about it?  I certainly would; it would be criminal for anyone to stand by and allow that type of sale to commence without due warning to prospective buyers.  

We had a miserable year with regards to safety in the Canard Community.  We must all do our part in making 2006 a MUCH more successful year on that front.   Can you honestly say that it's not anyone's business except the buyer and the seller?  

I said it before and I'll say it again.  I respect the opinions of those who disagree with me... my statements above are simply my opinion.
- Frank Pullano Jr
  BerkEZ N97JD
  Sandord Orlando FL (KSFB)

Offline EZPILOT742X

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2005, 07:10:55 PM »
I have to agree with Frank. Me makes some very good points and the numbers on that airplane with the specified equipment just dont match up.  Being that its an O-235, the speed may not be too far off, but the climb prop makes me wonder. Who knows about the rest. Anyone who knows Frank (and I havent' even met him) knows that he loves being involved with canard airplanes and sharing it with anyone he can around the country. His attention to detail and above all else, smart decision making and SAFETY is paramount. He is simply trying to point out some discrepencies and things to think about when looking to buy and start flying a canard airplane. Things that may go unnoticed and overlooked to those that are new to are community. Last year was a dark and dangerous year for Canard Aviators and it hit frank very closely. I think he's just trying to do anything he can to keep us all safe.

Respectfully,
Chris Randall
Berk-EZ N742X

Offline Tom

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2005, 07:51:19 PM »
I have personally seen the spot where a VE crashed and killed a pilot earlier this summer ( near CYQL),  and have felt the "sick" feeling in my gut the next time I flew.

The Vari is a cheap, fast plane, that can, and DOES kill.

How would you explain to a widow that "it wasnt by buisness" ?
 
If Franks' post even so much as prevents bugs from being killed,, Hats off to ya!
 

To all wannabe VE/LE drivers out there:

Find help from an experinced Canard Aviator in your quest for a plane, It may not only save your life, but also that of a loved one.

Tom

C-GZRT

Offline Tom

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2005, 07:52:51 PM »
PS

 Frank I think you gave N500EZ away!!

Offline fpullanojr

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2005, 11:22:14 PM »
For what it's worth, these emails came in to me but I've removed the names of the senders..   Look at what these people know about this airplane and they said something because someone stepped up and didn't mind their own buisness.  Frankly, this information is frightning and the disclosure of this information could CERTAINLY save a life.  My buisness or not, if I had a part in bringing out a truth and saved a buyer that knows nothing about canards from buying the plane.... well, you know the rest.

---snip----
I talked to this individual on the phone.  He knows nothing about aircraft.  He did not know when the last annual/condition inspection was completed.  I'm not sure he new what they actually were and when they were due.  The individual did not understand the concept of basic weight, gross weight, or useful load.  It was purely a guessing game on his part.  I would highly recommend caution when purchasing this aircraft. ....
----snip----

Another one.
----snip----
Hey Frank, you are dead nuts on about this piece of POOP!!! Unfortunately I know this guy.  He DOES NOT have a pilots ticket, has flown the airplane.  Made repairs that are not anywhere near right.  It needs to be restored BEFORE it is flown.  In its present condition I would let my X-husband fly it....got my point.  If you wish to put this to the group you may.  BUT, leave my name off of it.  PLEASE!!!!!!!
----snip----

And one more.
----snip----
This is **** from California (the guy with the **** that flew into Camarillo).  I was thinking of buying that EZ listed on Ebay but the history is very sketchy.  The owner is not a licensed pilot and has not flown the plane in about a year.  The people from the ******** back east (the *** stuff) looked at it for purchase also.  There are delam problems, it had nose damage from the owner which was repaired by him, and a few other things I can't remember at this time.  Oh, he had bought the plane without an engine and HE installed the 0235.  No annuals, no log entry, nada.  He is not an A&P.  If you ask me, this plane shouldn't go for mare than about $10 - $12,000 given the unknown work and history.
----snip----
.
- Frank Pullano Jr
  BerkEZ N97JD
  Sandord Orlando FL (KSFB)

Offline Drew

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 06:40:47 AM »
Thanks for the info, Frank.  This kind of forum with these kind of comments are going to keep people safe.

There is nothing wrong with buying that kind of plane (a dog----and most likely currently unsafe) as long as you know what you are getting into (a restoration project).  But the price should reflect that too.

One thing I have mentioned several times (sometimes publicly----and mostly on private emails) is that I weigh my decision to buy on the reputation/integrity of the seller.  I would walk away from sellers who don't know their aircraft.  I would also walk away from a seller who was not pointing out what the problems are (there are always problems).  It gives me great pause when I talk to a seller on the phone----ask him specifically about flaws, problems, or even little things that still need to be done----only to hear there are no problems whatsoever.  Then I show up to inspect the aircraft and point out about a dozen flaws during a cursory inspection.  Does the guy not know his plane----or does he have no integrity?----Walk!

When I sold my Longez, I had a documented list of flaws and things still left to be done if I kept the plane.  I was convinced that the buyer would find no more existing problems.  I also like to document those items to protect myself.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline deuskid

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ty
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2005, 09:50:44 AM »
I'm currently plane ignorant [and studiously researching to remedy that  :wink: ]...

I want to thank those who share such helpful information such as this.  This [to me] is as important as technical issues.

I don't expect to be acquiring a canard for a year or so but threads like this go along way toward my becoming comfortable doing so.  

thanks again and

Merry Christmas

John

Offline John Lambert

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2005, 04:08:26 PM »
So, to do a reality check:

A slightly more than casual glance at the photo tells a story. Compare it with the claimed performance specs, and it really does not add up.
Only a 118hp Lyc with a climb prop, cuffs(not removed), lower winglets, original p-51 ram scoop for engine cooling (not converted to a lower drag NACA), old style wheel pants, high drag upper cowl cylinder blisters, no mention of anything other than mags.

I strongly doubt it capabible of reaching 200 mph (TAS) straight and level (he may well see it on his GPS ground speed with a tail wind), 220 mph only in a dive (or in a very strong updraft pushing the stick forward). A 190 (TAS) mph cruise only at or near flat out. The fuel burn (at or near flat out) with that engine is much higher than 6 gph. That is a typical fuel burn for that engine with reduced power, and with all the airframe drag, he will need it near firewalled to maintain 190mph (TAS).

I base my obsrevations and comments on my experience with the west coast R.A.C.E. group (I have the data), my own experience in my 125 hp varieze(flown dirty like his, and later cleaned up), and many years flying with a rather large number of other Eze's (both cross country and in 16 races).

It takes a lot of hard work and drag reduction to get the performance claimed, and I don't see it on the Ebay Varieze.

Also, as noted in some Canard Aviators posts, many people claim numbers not close to reality, perhaps due to lack of proper effort to both record and verify good data.

I post this in support of Franks comments, and agree that there really should be truth in advertising.

John Lambert

Offline tonyslongez

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2005, 05:43:17 PM »
Geez!!! we haven't heard from "SPY" lately wonder where he went? :roll: maybe he's the guy trying to sell the airplane in question? Frank you are absolutely right. Good call bringing this to everyones attention. And will you buy another airplane for crying out loud and make another video GEEEEEE :lol:  this time make it a Long Ez I need to know what it will look like when i'm flying mine. Keep up the detective work maybe it will save my A@$$ some day too.

Tony

Offline rutanfan

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2005, 12:07:47 PM »
Has anyone contacted the people bidding on this thing?

Offline fpullanojr

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2005, 08:16:11 AM »
Update on this mess.  I just checked the auction and it appears that the seller ended the auction early due to an "error" in the description. He cancelled all remaining bids.  The note on the auction page stated the following:

 "The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing."

I'm glad he ended it and stated this as the reason for the early end.  I hope he relists it but with a more accurate description of the plane.

The way I look at this is simple.  He got some heat from somewhere, perhaps from here, perhaps from the canard group, perhaps via ebay email.  Who knows.  In either case, he felt as though his airplane was misrepresented and chose to pull it.  I still don't know for sure but I think we did the right thing and that was to look out for the new guy that didn't know what he was up against.  Right or not, it probably saved lives and if saving a life means being wrong... so be it!
- Frank Pullano Jr
  BerkEZ N97JD
  Sandord Orlando FL (KSFB)

Offline walter

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VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2005, 01:08:41 PM »
the plane is back on barnstormers.com!