Is the LongEz going to be dead soon?

[badger76]

As a noob trying to give the  longez community a chance to opine I am going to rant.....

I want a Long Ez for it's mission, and it's economics.  A 140kt aircraft burning 7 gal/hr is very appealing to me.

well, i've been reading and checking stuff out for about 2 years now.  I'm a avid pilot (as can be being a single dad), and i'd love to just get rolling on building a long ez.  Sadly, the community seems to be either very small (dwindling), reclusive, or non existent.  I think i will have to resort to the Cozy community, i love the long ez...to me it's the original, less expensive...doesn't need a 0-360, etc.  But I will most likely do a cozy, i don't want to since i haven't even really read up on them, but will for several reasons: 

Support - existing plans, materials, active builders.....nuff said

Community - As i said, finding a long ez builder/owner/expert.....is a needle in a haystack for the noob.  As a first time builder, or purchaser of a experimental nobody is building, that is a big sign of caution.  I can spit in the wind and find 10 RV drivers in my back yard, and they are willing and the community is down right amazing.  I mean, i'm willing to learn and drink the kool aid, but it's a tough pill to swallow.  Look at the task of getting complete sets of plans and templates to build???  Not even mentioning the KNOWLEDGE!

Practicality - if i can't build one because i can't get plans, or support...well, i'm not really keen on buying a 20 year old plansbuilt plane i know nothing about, my local A&P won't know anything about, and trusting my life to it.  And I'll feel like it will take me a long time to be comfy with it since i didn't build it.  And will never know if the wing spar or some other critical part has a crap layup inside it. 

So, thoughts canard community? 

In my honest opinion - here is what i think needs to happen or in 10-15 years, the LongEz will be gone:

1. A group of LongEz gurus needs build a long ez -  document, photo, digitize and rewrite all the long ez materials with the help of a aeronautical engineer who will cross reference and QA/QC burts stuff.  Then charge $300 for the plans and COMPLETE knowledge base.  So that anyone who got them, like a noob like me can have all knowledge at your fingertips, go to a EAA composite workshop, and be on your way.  Make the purchaser sign a hold harmless/waiver of liability, etc
2. By doing that you can grow the "enthusiast" base, and have a website that takes donations, like the RV community does.  Whoever runs the website, takes those funds and MARKETS the long ez community for group buys, awareness, PR, etc. the CSA and Yahoo group of canard/long ez folks should merge, and make one site, like this   www.vansairforce.com
3. OR......someone redesigns the long ez, make it better (if possible) make it wider, support todays new engines, etc, whatever, and sell a legit copy and set of plans.  Heck, wicks and aircraft spruce would probably be silent partners in the biz?

Well, that's enough.  Sorry for the rant, just frustrated, or uneducated or not self educated enough.  Please advise.

Greg
Madison, WI

[nicksflight]

Greg.
I am so sorry that you feel this way....being a Noob is not a sin...what is a sin is lack of faith in your building ablity, Yes I have org plans for the long-ez, I've got the high speed rudders, Ronz Canard, wide-body up grade drw, and all the Canard Asso prints...now I also have the Berkut RG-System plans and DRW, blue prints, instructions on how to install the system, up-grade engine install of a IO-320, Down draff cooling system...now even with all that...you still need to look at this as a new build, your the first, no one has what your doing out there...and there are some people out there like Val doing Jet Cozy and other canard repairs that you can draw on for advice. If you go to KY for the Sept airshow for canards you'll meet all kinds of builders and those who bought there planes from builders...a nice place to get to know someone...building a cozy is nothing more then building a long-ez...its just wider thats all... you said......(Not even mentioning the KNOWLEDGE!) your either a builder or a buyer....can't be both. Knowledge comes from your foot work finding all that you can before you build... I also would tell you to find a builder near you who has built a good model of the plane. and have him/her over for lunch on some weekends...(Beer and Pizza) goes a long way for most of them, very few well require a BQ dinner for their time..but you never know with this group.... once they are at your home, drill them for info...on how to do this or that....take notes, and just start, if you want to be in the air in 1-2 yrs...find the plane and buy it...because it well take more like 5 yrs for a noob to complete, and that is if your working on the project every night and weekend until its done!!! hence you'll be reading alot more then you'll be building, those are just the facts...some guys took over 10yrs to build. worth it you ask? some say yes...other have said no...but 5 is a good number to remember, your 2nd plane well take maybe 2yrs. because you'll change out things you want to make better.. to get a feel of a re-build check out Nick Ugolini blog...he did a Doctors plane, it first was a repair from a hard landing, then it became a (how about this and that) next thing you know....2yrs latter its done...but not repainted....(the doctor wanted to do that himself) but Nick did some cool stuff to the plane...does not matter if your a Cozy builder or Long. a lot of the things Nick did can be done on both type of aircrafts, check out his blog...and learn...next thing you know...your knee deep in dust looking like a snowman from all the white micro you just sanded off.
Enjoy
Nick A

[go ez]

Hey man - look at it another way.
Back in the 70's & early 80's, guys bought the plans and built Ezs as a pure act of faith. No-one really knew how the a/c would turn out - their long term value, how long the builder and parts support would last, the structural longevity and safety and on top of that they had to put up with plans changes and re-work as the bugs were ironed out of the designs - much from builder feedback.

The design now is very mature. You know what the VariEze and Long Ez can do - its pros & cons and can make an informed choice.

Agreed it would have been nice if Burt had developed the designs further but he was an innovator not a evolutionary developer. In the USA you are free to do further development if you wish.

If you buy from a reputable long term owner / possibly builder who is giving up say due to time catching up with him, you won't go far wrong.

Nothing wrong with RVs but they are largely all the same. If you want that - go ahead.

You are the canard future if you Go Ez.  Ezs have characther & personality, born of a person - just like you.
With the right owner, they can last forever. Unlike us.

[Super-EZE]

You are simply not an EZ builder. From your "rant" you sound like a kit builder. Certainly not a sin but don't blame the project for your inability to take up the challenge.

[Rick Hall]

Here's my thoughts, take them for what they're worth 

1) Plans build vs kit built. I can't tell you how many times people ask/infer my Cozy is a kit build. They're dumbfounded that I'm building a 200 MPH plane off a set of sketches that were sketched pre AutoCAD. A tub of epoxy, blocks of foam, and rolls of fiberglass. Nothing is pre-punched or pre-formed.

2) Cozy is the only plans built canard you can actually buy now. RAF bowed out of the plans business for various and sundry reasons. Aerocad may still offer plans, and I think Velocity offers a hybrid plans/kit as well as a kit.

3) Liability. Kit built, metal anyway, has everything more/less pre-made. Simple matter of inserting tab A into slot B, and squishing a rivet. And a good/bad rivet job can be checked with a gauge. Compare this to a plans built canard: "make it look like the picture". Tons of variables in the latter, and hard for the designer to prove it wasn't made just like the picture. We live in a litigious society.

4) Support. Lots of forums and mailing lists out there for Canardians (not to be confused with Canadians ). This may be a disadvantage for a new/potential canard builder, they may expect all support to be in one place like the Vans or Velocity websites. I know I get answers to my Cozy questions quickly, often w/in the hour. The rest I knuckle down and find the answer myself. There is a wee bit of hand-holding for new canard builders, but it's not near as much as I've seen for other amateur built planes.

5) Sex appeal (and/or babe magnets). Canards. Nuf said.

6) Unsupported. There are plans out there for building a tandem canard. Spend a day, or more, Googling for Open EZ plans. Suspect you could also build a Veri-Eze if you wanted to, but it'd be a chore making some of the special fittings (wing attach) yourself.

7) New design. I would very much like to see plans for a stretch Cozy MK-IV. A bit wider, and a foot or more longer, to make a real comfortable four place cross country machine. The market just doesn't seem to be there. As to 'reinventing' the tandem canard, see the bullets above.

If you have your heart set on a LongEz type, poke around the interweb. You will find the support you're looking for, it just won't be in one place.

Attend one of the canard fly-in's! There are many, but spread out across several website's Rough River is the premier one (roughriver.org) at 2I3 west of Ft. Knox, KY. RoughRiver is total canard immersion. The West Coast event is "Canards West" in Columbia, CA. Expect to see rocket scientists there. Then there's Kanab, SnF, Copperstate, Burrall Saunders gig, OSH, ...

Rick

[badger76]

Thanks all...

My rant was a little cynical.....and after rereading think i misconstrued some points, but the jist was there. 

As far as frustration from not having a single source of all relative info.....I see that a gentleman on the board pasted all the links to all plans, etc, which is nice.  But as to be expected some of the links were no longer valid.  I just feel that the Canard community would behoove itself to have a single source organization.  Does CSA have all the knowledge base available?  How do i replicate M drawings, or ensure i have all and the most up to date knowledge on paper?  I have searched the web and seen the M drawings you can take to kinkos.

Regarding the community....all of you offered your opinion, but didn't see a real "hey, we're here to help.  Let us(me) know what you need and how the community can help"  Most of you offered great advice. But 256 people viewed my post, and only 5 (well 4) offered support....is 0.02% response the best the ez.org community has to offer?  I have been looking and found one person near me that built his longEz, and will develop that relationship.   

Stefano, your story is inspiring.  Thankyou. A friend of mine lives in Rome, maybe I'll come visit you for support and pick your brain!

SuperEz - That exact comment you posted, is exactly why I see the same posts on different Canard websites.  "is the canard dead?".  You don't know anything about me, but take a cheapshot at me?  Nice.   It's not kitbuilt vs. EZ, or my 'inability', there's nothing about building a LongEz that worries me  I would simply like the completeness of plans like the Cozy plans (but for LEZ) with the LongEz community in one place, for a central resource, like Vansairforce.  My point was, if the canard community could come together and deliver those two things, the next generation of LongEz builders would GROW.  And if i decide to buy a flying LongEz, all of those resources would need to be required also. 

Buying a flying one presents it's own challenges.  But i would welcome those.  One post i saw was from someone who had a question, or Variez wing fittings, or something or other, and one poster replied something to the extent of "There are only 4 people in the whole country I would trust to evaluate that problem"  Really?

Not looking for anyone to reinvent the longez.  Just don't know why www.ez.org doesnt have a "Resources" tab on the page, with ALL INFO NEEDED?

ZG4me - Thanks for the info, good points.  And yes, the scattered resources and community of canardians is frustrating.  Heck I went to the "other canardian website" and just read a post on there that essentially said that ez.org isn't worth visiting.  Which i disagree with.

So here's what I need and here's what I plan to do:

Need:
- All M drawings replicated to exact dimensions, anyone on here willing to copy me or sell me their originals, or tell me how to replicate them.
- Cross check that i have all plans info, I know where to get the CP's
- COMPLETE list of LongEz drivers, builders, owners, tinkerers, etc withing 1-3 hours driving range of me
- Materials suggest to me by the good folks on this site
 

Going to do:
- attend composite EAA workshop
- continue to read everything i can get my hands on
- Go to Rough River
- Keep bugging folks like you
- Try to find a Cozy/longez builder or owner as a mentor
- I've only flown in a longez once, need to do it more somehow

Thanks all



 

[Rick Hall]

Rough River (et al) will be beneficial, you'll get to pick plenty of brains. The majority tandem pilots, but this is slowly changing to quad. I'll probably be there this year, one of the few that arrives on two wheels, camping, and toting a stash of sauerkraut.

Plans on EZ.org is fairly simple (IMO). Even though RAF bowed out of selling them, that doesn't imply they're now public domain.

With perseverance you will find the plans (M drawings) you need, and I'll assume you know the instructions are on the TERF CD, or so I've heard. Plans + Terf CD + sweat and lots epoxy dribbles = completed plane.

A list of Canard drivers can be had by joining the CSA. The list is pretty robust I hear, but doesn't include me... I've another year before I'm in the left/front seat

Rick

[Bruce Hughes]

Nobody can legally copy Longeze plans; Burt Rutan has the copyright and has not
released it.  Fortunately it is possible to buy plans for the Cozy IV.   You MAY be
able to buy plans for the Longeze but you have to pay whatever the going price
is.   RAF sold plans in order to have sufficient income to buy food and pay rent.
We are lucky to have them.    RAF quit selling plans because some planes were
wrecked and the wives/relatives sued Burt.  In one famous case the pilot/owner
was drunk, took some other woman with him, but forgot to insert all 4 pins that
hold the Varieze wings on.  You can imagine how well it flew when one wing
shifted backward.   

 So the wife sued and lost.

Bruce Hughes   

[Marc Oppelt]

All BS aside - you can build a Long-EZ from plans available on the web at no cost.  Here is a link that contains links to downloadable plans:

http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?t=5200&highlight=downloadable+plans

There are three Long-EZ's being build in the town I live in.  Two are from these plans and I know for a fact that building from these plans works out just fine.  If you google search "Long-EZ project" you'll find quite a few builder's pages with projects in progress.  I'm guessing many more builders have no web presence.  The design is still alive and its evolving.

If you want to build one...download & print these plans, buy foam, glass & glue and get started.  It's not difficult and the plans will teach you what you need to know.  Approach the project like you're trying to get something done (don't dork around and agonize over every little thing) and your build time should be somewhat reasonable.  I've talked to several people who have had their planes up and flying in less than 3 years.  The couple at OSH this summer with the Honda engine built theirs in two, IIRC.

Then again, I've only build a fuselage & spar in two years...so take this for what its worth.  But I dork around and agonize over every little thing.

[GlennBob]

You  " dork "  around huh, . . actually . . I think that is part of the process.  You can find it on page . . .  (just kidding).  But I  KNOW  it is part of the process.  You have to decide what you need to decide in order to decide if you're gonna follow through with your decision.  And this requires a certain amount of  " dorking " around  ! !   =  )

Glennbob

[Marc Oppelt]

CORRECTION:  Links to the plans are on POST # 20 of this thread:

http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?p=68454#post68454

[badger76]

Marc, thanks a lot.  You hit the nail on the head for me.  Exactly what i needed to read and hear.

Also, I would very much be interested in finding the couple you mention that build one in two years, with a Honda Power plant.  Anyone on here got contact info for them?  At the end of that sentence you said "IIRC", what is that?

Congrats on your building, I checked out your page.  Very impressive. 

I am new to composite building, so i'm looking forward to diving in.  I just plan to do what i did when i decided to fly.  When the time is right soon, just dive in and don't think, just do.  I did my private in 2 months, and passed my checkride at 41 hours  I don't think i'd be able to replicate efficiency building a long! but i want to avoid dinkering, and "dorking" around.  Plan the build, build the plane.

I plan to build a LongEz to as close to plans as possible.  I DO NOT want to over think the project too much.  Plans built, 0-235, with simple day/night VFR, EFIS electronic panel, and get in the air and plan some "see the world" cross countries. 

[Marc Oppelt]

Also, I would very much be interested in finding the couple you mention that build one in two years, with a Honda Power plant.  Anyone on here got contact info for them?  They live in Arizona I think.  Search Youtube for Long-EZ Aquatrax for a vid or two.  Maybe contact thru Youtube.

At the end of that sentence you said "IIRC", what is that?]  "If I recall correctly"

Congrats on your building, I checked out your page.  Very impressive.  Thanks, but the proof will be in the pudding, as they say.

I am new to composite building, so i'm looking forward to diving in.  I just plan to do what i did when i decided to fly.  When the time is right soon, just dive in and don't think, just do.  I did my private in 2 months, and passed my checkride at 41 hours  I don't think i'd be able to replicate efficiency building a long! but i want to avoid dinkering, and "dorking" around.  Plan the build, build the plane.  Ok, that said; be meticulous and get everything as exact as you can. At the end of the day you want to end up with a good final product.

I plan to build a LongEz to as close to plans as possible.  I DO NOT want to over think the project too much.  Plans built, 0-235, with simple day/night VFR, EFIS electronic panel, and get in the air and plan some "see the world" cross countries.  Building it 4" wider was a cinch...I wouldn't even think about NOT doing that.  You must add the same into the center section of the spar as well.  It will take no extra time or head scratching.  Todd can make you a wider canopy - thats no problem.  He probably still has the tooling for mine. 

More engine power will make your plane more useful and allow you fly out of more places.  Most everybody uses 320's now - 150hp at least.

There ya go - now git to it.