VariEze on Ebay # 4599234526

[ezebuilder]

hey guys,
 
  i STILL DONT SEE  how BLINDLEY Attacking A FELLOW CANARDIAN has anything to do with SAFETY...
    I WONDER IF A ANYONE WHO POSTED AND STARTED THIS STRING EVER SAW THIS PLANE  IN PERSON?.....
  ONLY ONE PERSON MENTIONED " MORALE"....YUP>>...THERE IT GOES.
   "May the first one without sin cast the first stone"
   I AM SO LUCKY...THAT THE EZE PEOPLE I KNOW ..WOULD NEVER BEHAVE LIKE LIKE THIS SPECIALLY TOWARD  A FELLOW EZE PERSON..
 
  HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.

[fpullanojr]

hey guys,
 
  i STILL DONT SEE  how BLINDLEY Attacking A FELLOW CANARDIAN has anything to do with SAFETY...
    I WONDER IF A ANYONE WHO POSTED AND STARTED THIS STRING EVER SAW THIS PLANE  IN PERSON?.....
  ONLY ONE PERSON MENTIONED " MORALE"....YUP>>...THERE IT GOES.
   "May the first one without sin cast the first stone"
   I AM SO LUCKY...THAT THE EZE PEOPLE I KNOW ..WOULD NEVER BEHAVE LIKE LIKE THIS SPECIALLY TOWARD  A FELLOW EZE PERSON..
 
  HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.

I don't know why I'm responding to this but I will.  Ugg!

It wasn't a "blind attack", I asked the seller about it on ebay and he ignored my request for more information on the subject.  I then made the post with what I will admit were assumptions.  Once that happened, there were a number of people and yes, some with FIRST HAND experience with that particular airplane.  Others spoke to the seller who (to them) had no idea what he was talking about.

The seller probably received a number of follow up questions about the plane which most likely prompted him to end the auction early since there was obviously something misleading in the description.

If the auction was accurate, why wouldn't the seller say so?  I would have personally ate crow and stood up to say that I was wrong.  I even said that if I was wrong, I'd buy the plane.

You mention morale?  How in the world can you say that as though I lack morals in this case.  My only intent is to keep someone from getting the screws put to them and possibly ending up getting hurt or worse.  The morality of this lies upon the seller.

You post here with an aggressive attitude and it's your right to do so, honestly I respect your opinion but who the heck are you?  Did you post under an alias because you are afraid to sign your name?  Do you not believe what you are saying?  Is it that you have a vested interest in this particular airplane and are biased?  I don't know if any of that is true but I have to admit that It's a curious matter when this was your first post on this board and you don't sign your name.  In other words, it's difficult to place any value on anonymous comments.

You say that you are lucky that your EZ buds wouldn't treat you this way?  You think so?  I have great difficulty in believing that for one moment.  The EZ folks that I've come across (and that's a whole lot of em!) have saved my bacon more than one time.  Guess what though?  Do you actually think that my butt was saved by people telling me things that "I wanted to hear?"  Nope, it was a reality check and the big old BS flag waving in my face.  

I owe these guys my life for their candor and I fully expect to repay that debt.  If your EZ pals won't do that for you, I'm very sorry and dismayed to hear that, I simply don't believe that is true.

You wouldn't "BEHAVE" like what?  You would let a pilot strap into an airplane that you weren't certain about?  An airplane that the seller misrepresented?  An airplane where very respected people KNEW FOR SURE wasn't a safe airplane?  If you knew of these issues, you would allow one of your EZ pals to strap in?  Who sir has a problem with morals?

The last thing I thing I'll mention is that I sign my name when I write something.  It's because I am stating what I feel in my heart to be the truth at least from my perspective.

I'll sleep fine tonight....

[Drew]

What you see as an attack on a fellow canardian, I see as a fellow canardian trying to rip someone off.  The posted picture of the aircraft does not match the description of the airplane.  Which one is wrong?  The picture or the description?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with selling the aircraft as pictured for whatever amount of money the seller can get (its a free country---and an aircraft's ultimate worth is whatever a seller and buyer agree on).  However, a seller has a moral obligation to not sell his aircraft under false pretenses.

We have already seen one of my friends get ripped off by a varieze guy out in CA.  He hid known fuel leaks and glass problems with a fresh paint job.  Did not make the buyer aware of the wing joint problem that this aircraft had.  Promised him 2 props and only delivered one prop.  Unfortunatly my friend did not do a prepurchase inspection---many of these things would have gotten caught.  The aircraft was in essence----unsafe to fly----and the previous owner knew it (the owner originally said he would deliver the aircraft as part of the deal---and then backed out----I think I know why he backed out).  As I stated before, there is nothing wrong with selling even this aircraft it the condition it was in.  Just let the prospective buyer know what he is getting.  Why in the world is anyone arguing about a seller coming clean about the true condition about his aircraft?

Once again for buyers----I would walk away from a very nice looking aircraft if there is something a little fishy with the seller.  Also, make sure you get a good prepurchase inspection from a knowledgable canard guy.  A prepurchase won't guarantee you a "clean" aircraft---but it will get all the obvious things that a newbie won't know about.

[Joe Person]

OK, I gotta weigh in here.

There was a VEZ for sale a month or so ago on ebay, nice (really nice & sporty) paint job, and a nice-looking airplane overall.  Caveat emptor...

I was asked by an earlier potential buyer almost 2 years ago to review some of the critical details on this airplane.  The airplane was, at that time, located in the Vancouver, WA area.  Before committing to fly down to examine the airplane in person, I asked for some good digital photos of the critical areas (wing fittings, F-22 bulkhead, canard lif tabs, etc.).  Upon seeing the pics, I told the prospective buyer to steer clear.  The wing fitting plates common to the centersection spar had been shimmed between .063 and about .090 inch farther apart than the by-design .375 inch.  The original builder, while a talented finish guy, was obviously ham-handed with his layups - to have to shim these critical structural items the way they were shimmed showed total lack of ability when building the sparcap & shearweb of the centersection spar.  This shimming totally blew the critical geometry of the wing attach fittings, and heaven only knows how the builder compensated for this gross error.  There would be no easy way to fix this garbage, short of building a wholly new centersection spar structure.  Unsafe airplane, until proven otherwise.

Upon seeing this same airplane on ebay recently, I asked the seller if the wing/centersection structure had been repaired/re-built.  The answer I got was far too nebulous for my liking, and shortly thereafter, the airplane disappeared from ebay.  I do not know if it ever sold.  I hope to hell that anyone who might have purchased this airplane would have been cognizant of the history of the airplane.

I have personally examined (many times) another VEZ that was eventually sold on ebay (and untruthfully touted in the ad as, "...possibly the nicest VariEze...").  That airplane was fairly well-rendered, but had several safety-of-flight no-no's that I repeatedly insisted needed correction.  After tiring of the incessant, repeat-questions on how to fix these problems (about 10 hours of my own time wasted...), I gave up and bluntly told the dweeb owner that he needed to hire a good A&P.  The airplane was sold several months later.

Where am I going with this?

Each VEZ, LEZ, Cozy, etc. are ONE-OFF airplanes.  Each has features (good or bad) that are unique to that airplane.  In this vein, those of us who are experienced builders have some responsibility to call "BS!" when indeed BS exists in the realm of the selling of one of these airplanes to the uninformed/inexperienced.  And I'll take this a step further - anyone who enters into the purchase of any homebuilt, with nothing more than the desire to own a "cool airplane cheap" should be counseled, especially when the airplane in question is a plans-built.  As a Tech Counselor and a practicing aerospace engineer, I have seen too many scary things done in the name of building a homebuilt airplane.

If a seller is content to misrepresent any aspect of an airplane, particularly a homebuilt, caveat emptor.  What happens when a buyer thinks he can get his airplane off the runway in 750 feet, when in reality it takes 1500 feet?  What happens when a latent construction error manifests itself at 12,000 feet?  Sorry.  Anyone who thinks we should keep such facts to ourselves and not be a buttinski, is off-base.

Off my "All Temperature Cheer" box & with no apologies,

-Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[fpullanojr]

I don't know if this adds value to my side of this discussion but....

I have been talking with the fellow who bought my plane a few weeks ago and mostly we communicate via email.  He sent me a very nice message this evening detailing his experiences in VariEze N500EZ.  The last paragraph of his email is pasted below and I think it's important enough to repeat it here.

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a new canard owner who isn't aware of every little issue that a typical EZ has.  Well, anyway... for what it's worth to those who might still disagree with me on this point.

(note: The autopilot that he talks about is the Trio EzPilot, and the Dynon is the D10 variant, and the Garmin is the GPS Pilot III.  The leak on the crank case is coming from the garloc seal at the flange.  He mentioned the brakes since I overhauled them shortly before I delivered the plane to him; the right brake had a slight leak at the piston o-ring.)

Brandon Roberts Wrote,

.... "I got your message the other day—my wife and I have been flying all over the place.  We absolutely love 500EZ.  We’re discovering great little airports all around, and getting very acquainted with the airplane.  She flies great.  The engine has been running smooth and working as advertised—I’m keeping an eye on that crankcase leak.  The oil level isn’t dropping appreciably, but about every other flight I’ll notice a small streak of oil on the back of the crankcase.  I’m going to have the seal replaced this month.  There’s a great A&P here at Langley who knows engines and will let me work with him—I think that’s the best thing to do right now with me not knowing as much as I should about the engine.

The brakes have been working great—I haven’t found any fluid leaks on the right side.  I haven’t adjusted the rudder pedals for my legs yet, so it’s kind of an awkward dance for me to work the rudders just right, but it isn’t bad.

I really appreciate the panel you set up.  We’ve taken a couple 3 hour flights now, and it’s easy.  I wish everything I flew was as easy to use and reliable to navigate with.  The Dynon is a little piece of magic—I love that thing.  The Garmin works extremely well, and is very easy to navigate with.  The Anywhere Map acts up every once in a while and freezes up, but I backed up the software on my home computer and have been trying to free up the memory in the iPaq, and it’s been working well since.  I’ve been using FltPlan.com and AeroPlanner.com for online flight planning, and that has worked extremely well.  I’ve been keeping logs of my airspeeds/altitudes and my end of flight fuel burn, and my VariEze profile on the flight planning software is starting to be very accurate.

The autopilot is amazing.  Sadly enough, I’ve never flown with such a capable system.  The best we have in the F-15 is a wing-leveler—and I can count the number of times I’ve used it.  Flying with the autopilot in 500EZ, I don’t know how I’ve lived without it before.  I flew the first few times without ever turning it on, and around the 5th flight or so I figured I’d turn it on and see what it could do.  Needless to say, I was pretty impressed!

Takeoffs and landings are getting pretty good.  The takeoff is easy—this plane is fast and wants to fly.  Landings have all been safe thus far, and I’m getting better at working a good approach.  I’ve found that this plane tends to float a lot more in ground effect than I’m used to—it’s almost like doing a regular fighter approach into a General Aviation flare where you anticipate that ground effect.  The techniques you gave me on keeping the nose up and using the speedbrake were easy to integrate into my habit patterns—especially with the way you set up the HOTAS on that stick.  I’m loving it.

I saw your recent posts on ez.org—I’ve been watching that forum and others closely for a few months now.  As your buyer, I can verify that I was very pleased to know the exact capabilities of the aircraft—the good and the bad.  There have been no disappointments, and I got into this knowing exactly what to expect.  I think the canard community is like every other great aviation group—it only stays good if the pilots take the time and expend the effort to regulate themselves.  The simple fact is, canards are slick, fast planes.  That makes them dangerous to people who don’t have experience with flying tail first and fast—any newbie such as myself.  Misrepresenting a plane—particularly one that doesn’t have standard safety improvements—is a disservice to the canard community and the buyer because it starts the chain of events that leads to an accident that hurts the new buyer/pilot and looks bad for the whole community.  Thanks for being one of the experienced dudes with the wherewithal to raise the flag on that issue.  And thanks for selling me your great plane!"....


--------------------------------------end quote---------------------

[Joe Person]

OK gang,

Round 2 on my soapbox regarding being a busybody on purchased canards.  And again, no apologies from me.

I was finishing off moving my hangar goodies from my old hangar today, when I saw a couple of gents disassembling a VariEze on the ramp that was recently sold on ebay.  'Course, I had to walk over and take a look.

Recall that this airplane had a complete engine overhaul, by the A&P that sold it on ebay it, as touted in the ebay listing.

How many of you would like to see a supposedly 0SMOH O-200 that had been reassembled with the stock, orange, high-temp RTV all over the place, including crankcase mating faces, with plenty of it oozing out of all the seams?  Blobbed on all over the place on other exterior portions of the engine (no-doubt to temporarliy obscure the inevitable oil dribbles).  Howsabout the engine installed on a thoroughly rusty engine mount?  With all sorts of no-no's in the engine compartment?  (e.g. a carb heat hose that was actually some of the thin-walled, soft aluminum clothes dryer vent tubing mashed and clamped to the heat muff and to the airbox assembly)

How about taper pins that could not be popped loose with the standard gentle blow from a hammer?  (I like Gary Hertzler's method much better, by the way, but such tooling was not to be had today).  Though claimed not to have been, I am positive the through-bolts were wayyyy overtorqued.

Did I mention that the engine was majored by an A&P?

I gave the buyer (a gent who lives in Canada) my email address and asked him to contect me upon his arrival back home.  I could have gone on a foaming-mouth tirade based on what I saw today, but opted to hold my (bleeding) tongue, in light of the fact that the stress levels of trying to get the airplane on a trailer were already "up there".

This is out and out crap, folks.  This is the sort of cheesy BS that can bite, and bite hard.  Oh lawdy but I wanted to go back and get in the seller's face and tell him what a load of garbage he was pushing, and ask him which Crackerjack box he got his A&P license out of.  We cannot collectively tolerate this stuff - the end results can hurt us all.  Yeah, I'll listen to the rants of the weenies out there who say it is none of my business, and can't we just sing "Kumbaya" and have a happy canard time here, but none of that will change my convictions when it comes to our obligations to help others enjoy a great experience with a canard airplane by beginning with basic airworthiness and safety.

Again, no apologies here.  I won't do it.  I hope the buyer takes me up on my offer to discuss his purchase further with me, after he gets all of his airplane home safe & sound.

End of rant.  I hope all you out there have a safe & good-flying 2006.

-Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
Bothell, WA  (Was KAWO, now KPAE)

[Dave in Eugene]

Thanks Guys.

The protester of truth has clearly lost this round of the discussion.

Clear skies and tailwinds in 06.

Dave

[Tom]

Joe,,

What part of Canada was the gent from that bought the VE you mentioned? Perhaps if hes close, I can help him out..


Tom

[Joe Person]

Tom,

The gent lives in Edmunton, Alberta.  As soon as I hear from him, I will let you know.

Thanks for the assist,

-Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
Bothell, WA (KPAE)

[Tom]

Thanks,,

I'll have to get in touch with him (I'm only about an hour by eze) away. .

Tom

[Brian]

THERE WERE TWO VERIEZE’S FOR SALE ON EBAY DURING THE TIME THAT FRANK PULLANO QUESTIONED THE LISTING.   (Mine was one)   I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS REFERRING TO THE SAME EZ, AS I WROTE THE REPLY BELOW (PRIOR TO CLICKING ON THE EBAY LINK THAT FRANK PROVIDED).  THINKING THIS WAS ABOUT ME!  IT JUST WASN’T MAKING SENSE.  

[Below are my comments upon believing that my EZ was the one in question.  I would like to have everyone click on the link that Frank provided.   If this happened to me it could possibly happen to someone else.  I would be disappointed to learn that someone looked at MY EZ and/or talked with me and then went on to write one of these comments. Yet alone to read all these comments and think they were referring to my listing.]

--understand, I now know which VeriEze was in question.  Written below was my response before I clicked the Ebay link provide in Franks thread:

[First - I am the owner of that VeriEze being discussed - 503-760-2611
While in Europe I had my son list this Ez with the same information listed when I purchased this plane + the time changes.  There has been no damage and I do not work on my own planes.  Boy did his notes mess things up.  (My lesson)!!  Three days later I arrived to find my listing incorrect and what I consider dangerous to the unknowing.  Immediately, Items were deleted that were incorrect.  I was not able to place addendums to my add but I could delete items incorrectly written.  This was done!
NOW - TO THOSE OF YOU WHO MADE COMMENTS ON ME OR MY Ez.
Frank-
You were totally correct when informing any who might be possible buyers.  You could also do this by contacting current bidders on Ebay which is what the 2nd owner of my Ez did for me when I purchased it.  Great help!  Applause to you and never hesitate.  Your comment was courteous and gracious to both buyers and Sellers Alike.  It was even gracious to the seller that made the error. ME!

NOW SPY - You are more right than you know, just not when it comes to Frank Pullano.  His comments were made to warn and be make individuals leery of something he could not make sense of.  I find myself doing the same things many times when aeronautics are involved.  After reading many other canard responses, and the wrongs listed about me and/or my Ez I really do understand how this can become a garbage site.
Chris and Tom. Your comments are right in that we must keep fellow aviators in-the-know.  It is an inexpensive fast plane and warnings are very useful.  They can be handled like adults and your comments were proof of that.
NOW YOU OTHERS that made such nasty incorrect comments about me and my (Now Sold) EZ.

I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY PLANE?  If you in fact talked to me you did not walk away with that feeling.  That would be impossible given my aviation history!  Every person I had contact with had my number (503-760-2611) and if you really thought I was selling something that I was ignorant to, than you should have brought that up to me.  Don't know who you were talking to but you certainly handled this wrong.  Brian 503-760-2611

I'm a "piece of POOP"!!!!  You do not know me!  I would like to say that you should be ashamed of yourself for that comment about my ticket.  I have never made repairs to my plane and I have the A&P (20years in business) to prove it.  Young lady, you clearly do not want your name mentioned as you make in your statement, but I do no why you have an X-husband!!  You know me?  Prove it.  Brian 503-760-2611.  I am not angry with you but you should at least have the class to get your facts straight before this defamation of character.  My N# is N52MH.  You couldn't possibly know my plane.

California Guy!  You were not someone that talked with me.  The history of my Ez is not at all sketchy as I told all those with serious interest the names and phone numbers of all owners including the Builder whom lives in Shasta CA.  There are absolutely no delaminating problems, it has never had an accident or incident and if it had I would NEVER fix anything on my plane without an expert right there with me.  (And it would be listed for interested persons to see.)   Like the misses above, you do not know me and it is important for you to get your facts straight before you put finger to keyboard.  Brian 503-760-2611
Drew - Applause to you.  The integrity of the owner mirrors the integrity of the plane.
John Lambert- Applause to your reality check.  Great breakdown and it holds water.
Tony - Perhaps the lack of comments from SPY were due to the defamation of character from those that said they know me.  Why argue with people like that.  
The character thing got me.  Shame on those of you that claimed to know me.]

OK, NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS, LAUGH.  I DID (FINALLY)!  I OWE AN APOLOGY TO: “I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY PLANE”; “I’m a “PIECE OF POOP” AND “CALIFORNIA GUY” ASYOU COULD KNOW THIS GUY AND ALL I KNEW IS THAT YOU DIDN’T KNOW ME.  PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY….I’VE EATEN CROW!!!!
IF ANY OF YOU WERE COMMENTING ON MY PLANE AND NOT THE ONE IN THE LINK FROM FRANK PULLANO, CALL ME:  BRIAN 503-760-2611 AS WE HAVE SOME TALKIN TO DO.

Cheers,

Brian Kirk
503-760-1611

PS:  I kept wondering why people were saying my Ebay auction closed early.  That should have been my clue, I know.

[fpullanojr]

Brian, I'm sorry you had to go thorugh that roller coaster ride.  I found your plane on ebay after I read your post.  I didn't see it before the auction since it wasn't spelled like most "varieze".

Don't get me wrong though, It's not that I would have made similar comments about your plane, I had no reason to.  Remember, I only did so after the seller ignored my inquiry.  

I admire your post in many ways.  Anyone who finds out later that they were wrong about something, is able to erase the evidence by deleting their own post but instead chooses to stand up and say that they made a boo boo is A OK in my book.  (for what that's worth.)

Good on ya.

[Brian]

Frank, I can laugh about it now.  It was that 15 minute period where I thought I was posted all over a web-site.  WOW!  Shocker!  I did have a chance to talk with Joe Person last night after my email.  Great guy.  He knew my VEZ and has great admiration for you but it sounds like that is mutual.
Have a great beginning to your New Year and I hope to meet you in person someday.
Brian

[D]

Looks like the same plane is back on the selling block... but it has a different story and new/improved spec's attached this time.

EBay ID #   4607455240

[fpullanojr]

Holy cow... The kid says he's in the Academy too.  So much for integrity! OUCH!  I'm dropping this rock, I have said my piece on this airplane.  Very Sad....