what runway length do you operate from?

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Offline flyboy

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what runway length do you operate from?
« on: March 25, 2009, 06:17:41 PM »
can you tell me what typical runway lengths you operate from?  I've been seeing some long takeoff and landing rolls at Rough River and online, and was wondering what the norm was.  What I've seen doesn't seen to seem to match up with the POH, but that could just be me.

Offline Drew

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 08:01:33 PM »
There are personal and POH limits.  My personal limits in a Longez is 2000 ft and a Cozy is 3000 ft.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline cloudman

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 08:41:51 PM »
Without the field elevation, you are not giving very good info to a newbe......or anyone that just wants to follow your lead.
My personal limit with C-85 powered Varieze is 2400 feet at close to sea level (0- 500 ft). I can do in 2000 ft, but do like a bit more runway. At 5000 ft. altitude, I probably have used 3000 ft to take off or land.....but that is just a guess.

Offline Bruce Hughes

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 10:15:37 AM »
Hi "Flyboy"

Weight is a very large factor.  Some Longezes weigh 200 lbs less than mine    :(
when empty.  If I had 2 "FAA standard" people and full fuel (which I will NEVER
do), it would weigh about 1680 lb.   Some Longeze guys can fly solo with a few
gallons of gas at 1100+ lbs.   ???

Bruce Hughes    :)
Yelm, WA
Longeze N199BH
retired
taught at Maui Community College

Offline Drew

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 06:11:16 PM »
Read the POH for any of the EZs---that is all you need to know.  My pers limits will carry me for any condition/airfield east of the Mississippi.

For a newbie---sealevel at any temp----use 4000 ft to practice.  Take off is not the problem (with a 0320 Long, you can get off of just about any short runway out there), it is landing/speed control on landing.  I would not let any newbie fly anywhere near the field limits until he could consistently demonstrate hitting the numbers and stopping within the alloted space on a "big runway."

Once again---if you want to know about DA, CG, and GW----just look at the POH.

Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline allen

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 03:55:28 AM »
     Quick numbers for me: O320 with compressions in the mid 70's swinging  a cruise prop. Me in the pointy end and 10 gallons of fuel in each wing, puts me at about 1,270 pounds. 1000' above MSL on a hot and humid June summer day (~85). These were the conditions of the day when I "lowered" my minimum field. I landed at W91 (Smith Mountain Lake, 3058' paved) after a full year of practicing for it. Prior to this landing my limit was 4000' runway. The vast majority of my practicing was done at Roanoke Airport on their 6800 x 150 runway with attached fire department   ;)

     The landing was uneventful and I was slowed to taxiing speed by mid field. Now I have well over 500 landings in my Long-Ez. This summer I will expand that envelope again. The plan is to be able to get my plane into a 2000' runway comfortabley. While just about every field I fly into is around 3000', my goal is to be be familier with what the plane can do in an emergency landing situation.

     It is worth mentioning that I do not have wheelpants installed in an effort to keep the breaks cool as I continue to learn this amazing machine. My plane has MATCO's on 4.00 tires. Big breaks, small tires.

     When I first bought the plane I followed Drew's advice and it worked out great for me. The key here is practice and don't get into a hurry.  ;D



Allen
Long-Ez N701DS
1998 O-320 160HP
http://www.freewebs.com/wonderingwingnut

Offline dorr

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 05:22:20 PM »
I've polled a lot of people on this over the 20 years I've been finding planes.

With the Long EZ O-320 I like to see 3000' paved at sea level for newbies, minimum, 100 landings later, 2500' paved.  With heavier planes like Cozy IV, 3500' paved at sea level for newbies, 3000' paved when experienced.  The key on landings is to be ready to go around if you float too far - don't make every final a landing.

Altitude is an odd thing - Seems to be that from 3000' up you need to have 1000' of runway for every 1000' of elevation.  I found on a cold day in Colorado I thought an 8000' runway was great - and I was off before 4500' and glad when the longest roll in the world ended.  We go into Big Bear at 6200 or so - and it seems fine, I'm guessing 6000' long. (Ah, Airport guide says: 5850') 

We've had only a few people take off from a short field and hit something at the far end.  A Defiant on an 1800' grass strip recently, for example.  Years ago a guy on a very wet runway getting bogged down.  I nearly died with a flat encountered after brake release that I thought was a dragging brake.

The bigger problem with Canards seems to be people trying to hit the threshold on new runways and getting into a down draft and hitting short - hitting short has killed a number of friends and wiped a lot of gear where there is a smooth threshold area - part of this basic runway length is to let you ease yourself back toward the threshold in normal weather - for gusty winds, turbulence and altitude you must add final airspeed and be ready to go around.   It is not the climb but the getting to 80 mph and then having a failure that sets the length.  And if you find yourself "not stopping" go around, and if you can't remember that, pull up the nose gear and come to a much quicker stop.
David A.C.Orr
"Beagle"
www.canardfinder.com

Offline Bill James

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 11:51:42 AM »
The question may be about ground roll, but I agree with you Beagle, considering runway length, "It is not the climb but the getting to 80 mph and then having a failure that sets the length." Your thought on landing short and aborting, I try to make most landings without adding power, either adjusting ground track or admitting that at a particular point in the approach, that with no engine response, the runway wouldn't be reached; and immediately adding power and correcting. 
I usta could enter the 6000 ft runway pattern at 200mph and land, maybe float a little, and roll to the last turnoff without braking. Short field landings were occasionally practiced, usually when the pants were off for tire replacement. Plenty of room for fully loaded takeoffs, probably even with your point Beagle, an abort.
Now, operating out of a 4000 ft airstrip, sloping, with hills off the end, things are different. More fun actually. Here the pants are always on, so speed on final must also be "on", along with TE Fences and vortilons on, and me on my toes. Key point is the abeam position, where you must basically be at the speed you want on short final. Turbulence from trees and buildings along the sides has the sidestick stirring gently and continually, even after touchdown, holding the nose up for aerodynamic braking. Cool weather makes me feel smart and talented. Soon, like last summer, in the heat I will wonder if I've lost the magic touch.

As to the ground roll element of this question, actually weight, from hanging around for a few years, I also default to a more significant element than runway length, rather to the effect of that weight on ground roll after a forced landing. As mentined, hitting something on takeoff is fairly rare. My more extended concern is engine failure after takeoff. From training and by choice, every takeoff is made with the expectation that the engine is going to quit.
Rather than minimizing the takeoff roll, I am intent on getting to 150 mph or so for the climbout. Before that point there are few if any options. With that energy, a guy can do a little of that pilot stuff before flaring for the touchdown. Most folks will remember that the Eze needs about 22 mph above minimum speed to trade off to reduce the rate of descent. So I default to 100mph for best range and 90 as a minimum forced landing maneuvering speed, where at that magic moment in the powerless landing the wings would be leveled and the plane would be flown all the way throught the emergency.
Thus runway length is less a consideration than an engine failure, as in any airplane. I read an instructor's comments in AOPA I believe, paraphrased here, that most folks on short climbout in a Cessna 150 or 172, with loss of power, would not be aware enough of the significant force and effort required to push the nose over far enough to retain or regain enough airspeed to accomplish an acceptable landing.

Lots of good answers prior to mine. So what was the question?  Runway length? Takeoff roll? As in any aircraft, I think about getting off the ground and into the air with energy very intensely until scooting along at a coupla thousand feet. I like Drew's Eze runway comment, "any condition/airfield east of the Mississippi." And we're doing OK over here to the west.
All things considered, the Eze is still the one.
Good question Flyboy.
Bill James, Fort Worth VariEze N95BJ
Downdraft Plenums, QuickCowls
There was supposed to be anhedral?
ATP, Society of Flight Test Engineers

Offline Drew

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 06:12:37 AM »
<quote>I like Drew's Eze runway comment, "any condition/airfield east of the Mississippi." And we're doing OK over here to the west.
All things considered, the Eze is still the one. <quote>

I have flown all over CONUS---and have lived on both coasts---and for the most part based on my pers mins, don't need to break out "the book."  However, there are a lot more "singularities" out west (pull out the book) and virtually none out east.  :^)

Now, as far as "pulling out the book" is concerned, I have to do that everytime I put a new passenger next to me in the Cozy just to maintain CG.  Actually, I use a "gouge sheet" that shows how much ballast I need for the passenge sitting or not sitting next to me based on his weight. 

At least in the Longez, I never had to worry about that----CG-wise that is.

Subject---runway length?
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline dorr

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Re: what runway length do you operate from?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 12:33:52 PM »
Forced landing on takeoff is part of my pre-takeoff checklist too.   But I would never limit climb to get 150 mph in climb - my hope is to get to 600' above the runway as fast as I can (you need to evaluate your safe to return point individually), so I climb at 80 knots, offset 30 degrees left or right if possible to make returning to the field a better possibility - I don't think an engine failure there will be as drastic as Cessnas reported in the AOPA - the canard takes care of slow responders, the nose will drop in a canard.  After 600' AGL in climb I can relax and look over the nose and then adjust climb speed to stay in the cone of glide back to the runway.  Agree with all else.

Beagle
David A.C.Orr
"Beagle"
www.canardfinder.com