Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!

Author Topic: Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!  (Read 13013 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

a*v*8-ting

  • Guest
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« on: July 06, 2005, 06:41:51 PM »
I am ready to purchase a Vari or Long. I have read much on both.
I do however, see a great deal of EXPERIENCE/KNOWLEDGE with these birds on this web site. I would be honored if some of the "Pros" could provide their list of their "10 most important items" when buying a -eze?

dave

  • Guest
eze must have's
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 11:19:19 PM »
1 . is somethiing you cant buy,,,knowledge..and familiarity...
   reasearch research,research,,
 2. respect..,respect...it aint your everyday...cessna... :wink:
 
  everything else...is up to you

Offline Dave in Eugene

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2005, 04:49:23 AM »
A deep desire to get to know the airplane. I would study rain affect and be aware that rain could raise the stall speed...(higher approach speed in the rain) . Be clear about landing speeds and runway requirements. It is an amazing design...dreamy to be sure. Once airborne...the best flying experience I could ever want. Be aware that buying an experimental plane adds to the amount of ownership energy... You need to become the expert cause your A&P will probably be clueless... If you make the plunge and treat the canard community well you will be amazed at the support available. All the best with your Journey.

Dave in Eugene
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline rglos

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2005, 06:59:08 AM »
OK lets give this a try.

First of all welcome.

I asked myself what I would look for.

1) How much time on the engine. High time = lower price
2) How many generations of owners. Is this from the builder or from the  four previous owners.
3) Why is it being sold.
4) How good is the avionics package. Do you have to invest to bring it up to where you want.
5) Does it have the original builder documentation + the plans and templates.
6) Vari or Long. This is your choice
7) Look over the workmanship. Understanding that you're not the builder, is there anything glaring at you. I once saw a Vari EZ at Oshkoch with no filler on the glass weave.
8) Go for a ride.
9) See if you can find an experienced builder that can look at it with you. If not take close up detailed pictures and post them here. I'm sure you get get some reference from the guys.
10) Go in with an open mind and trust your instincts. If it doesn't 'feel" right


Rick
walk away.
Long EZ, 0-235L2C, 1986

Offline Tom

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2005, 03:49:27 PM »
One thing that would be number one on my list (for a VE) is simplicity and light weight.  The lighter the better, ie no starter and minimal gadjets!

Strider

  • Guest
10 items
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2005, 11:32:21 PM »
Having just gone through this recently, I feel obligated. And the local LongEZ driver who helped us the most said that returning the favor involved our helping the next guy. To begin, rglos's suggestions are a good top ten, I don't see how I can improve on them. What I can do is describe our apparently much better luck and experience in purchasing a VEZ or LEZ than most have had, from what I've learned. And particularly because our relatively good fortune also resembled a true nightmare.

It isn't easy. Despite the names of these planes, you will need to do a lot of work.

We purchased VariEze N111JK from the second owner in March, 2004. The plane was built and has always been based and hangared in Grand Junction, Colorado. So first of all, there is no chance of corrosion in the wing attach fittings. Workmanship on this plane is above average, but it is still very heavy. It had 575 hours on it when we bought it, and it first flew in 1983. We went for rides in the back seat prior to purchase, we each had some stick time, and it flew great. We looked at three LEZ's and almost bought one of them before seeing N111JK. This VariEze was one of the best of either type that we saw in approx. 4 months of looking. The VEZ was also only half the price of the cheapest LEZ. The owner delivered it to us.

Then we had to do six months worth of work before we started flying it. And I mean 6 months of full-time, all-day and all weekends work.  A new landing gear bow, new radios, new compass, new airspeed, removal of the LE cuffs and adding vorts and fences, new W&B, lots more ballast, complete interior refurbishment, new seat cushions, new battery, new tires, new fire-sheathed fuel hose, new scat tubing, valve work, valve adjustments, shimmy damper ... the list goes on and on. We estimate more than $20,000 worth of parts and labor. The LEZ's we also investigated all required more work, from what I saw. Lots more, because they were all in much rougher shape. The work our plane needed was often quite frustrating, and my wife gave up on the whole idea twice while we were preparing a new landing gear bow alone. We are glad we stuck with it.

I started flying ours with less experience than recommended in the POH. I used a very accurate VariEze in the X-Plane computer simulator, and this was more than valuable, in my opinion. Other EZ pilots advised me that I would probably make at least 2 aborted attempts to land before I finally managed landing on my first flight. But my first attempt at landing went great, and it is because I had landed the plane 100 times in the sim. I still fly the sim version when I'm planning long flights, such as our trip to PHX and back last Christmas, or our upcoming flight to Oshkosh this month.

We love our VariEze. We've been flying it for about a year now, and I am finally coming up on 40 hours in the type. I am to the point where I really enjoy landing it, which I originally thought would always be the difficult phase of every flight. It is simply fantastic, and we own an aircraft for a very small fraction of what most GA pilots spend. Yes, we have to mail our luggage and camping gear, but N111JK gets 20 mpg at a groundspeed of nearly 200 mph. No other available device can do this.

Strider

  • Guest
10 items
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2005, 12:19:53 AM »
Dang it, there is an error in that previous post. We see groundspeeds of 197 to 203 mph, and the O-235 L2C in our plane never draws more than 5 gallons per hour. That's 40 mpg, not 20.

Curt Boyll
VariEze N111JK, Boulder, CO

Offline Dan Patch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2005, 10:33:26 AM »
Nice report Curt, from the real world of experience.  

Yes, those of us who have been helped by other canardians have an obligation to pass on the favor - and downstream it's reasonable to expect those we help to keep the chain going.  That's how we keep a safe and strong canardian community.   :)

Over the years I've met a lot of folks who were looking for a cheap, turnkey airplane.  Buy it, fly it, period.  Certainly possible if you stumble into just the right deal and have a local A&P expert who will do the work for you, but I haven't seen it yet.  Fact of life is that these are great planes only so long as they have an owner who cares and is willing to keep on top of the little and occasionally not so little stuff that needs attention.  

Having seen the weights of real-world VEZs and LEZs (i.e., personally weighed some), it is going to be a rare bird indeed that is anywhere close to Burt's values (BTW, Burt wasn't always successful at hitting these semi-unrealistic values himself) - and a super-lightweight, basic plane may not be as enjoyable to fly if long, cross-country is your thing.  Absolutely, lighter is the goal that you always have to seek; but there is a balance that the majority of pilots seem to shade in the direction of better equipment and comfort.  What I'm trying to say is that what carefully built, capably equipped VEZs weigh these days might provide a better measure of whether your EZ is really "very heavy"... or not.  

I have no doubt that it took a full 6 months of work.  Most of us flyers have taken our ships down for a month or two for major work that ends up taking 6 months or more.  Fact of life - everything is a lot harder and takes much more time than the enthusiastic mind envisions prior to settling in to do the work.  In my case I've learned that I can't realistically envision how long it's going to take, only that my best shot at an estimate is going to be low by a factor of two or three (in time or effort... or both).  

The good news is that mods like taking the cuffs off, etc. are one-shot investments that will continue to make your plane better over the rest of its life.  Even the investment in consumables like hoses has a big payoff because they give you confidence that your plane is in top shape.

I like your sim suggestion for new (and continuing) pilot training.  

BTW, if you are registered on the site you can click on edit for your messages and fix those 'mizz spellings' that somehow get into a post.  If you forget to log on initially... well, oops, no can do!   :)
DeltaPop
VariEze N862DP
(@1970 hrs)

A*V*8-ting

  • Guest
Vari & Long-EZE MUST HAVES!
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2005, 01:40:13 PM »
As I expected, the outpouring of experience and knowledge has been extensive. Having been around aviation for more than 45 yrs., it is amazing how many pilots really don't know their aircraft...they leave that up to their A & P! You guys really set yourself apart!

Thanks RGLOS for the 10 tips to look for in a eze.

Learning from your journey in buying and modifying your eze, STRIDER, is a true payback, as you put it. This is exactly the "been there, seen & done that" that I am seeking! My only problem is due to my career (Sales Mgr. for large Aerospace company), I travel my backside off and couldn't find the time to do all the great things you did to your aircraft to bring it up to your standards. What I am looking for is an aircraft that has been professionally built and cared for all its life. I swear (yes Mom) that I will keep it a "10" from the point I first take to the skies! I have looked at several frogs, and frankly, have missed some real gems recently....but that's my fault.

I will see many of you at OSH later this month, with or without an eze.

Delta Pop, thanks for your perspective as well. When I become an owner, I too will readily pass the torch on to those who will tread down the same potential buyer's path as I presently follow.

Thanks to all others who have/will reply!


Allan

Allan

Anonymous

  • Guest
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2005, 08:41:57 PM »
Even if you get a gem, you will need to do work on it.  If you have a spam can, you can always find someone to work on it.  My advice is not to buy these kind of planes if you have no desire to get your hands dirty.  I recently sold my Longez (of which I thought I would never get rid of----oops, kid on the way---need more seats).  I bought a real nice Cozy---very nice condition.  But here are a list of the things I have done in just the last couple of months-----and keep in mind, this is a very nice Cozy MKIV.

-Brake Master cylinders leaky---and don't like the feel.  Replaced with Matco.

-Right brake line leak----replaced line

-Not quite IFR capable.  Added VAL ILS.  Vent hose was in the way.  Had to cut off the inside portion of the Naca vent and make a new fiberglass mechanism to reroute the air.  Wires in the way also---rerouted those.  The builder had a spare antenna already in place----and all his wires were labeled too!!--very nice

-Electronic Ignition wires ratty---replaced

-valve cover leak---replace all valve covers with Real Gaskets (silicone)

-Air oil separater leak and breather tube too small----removed air/oil separater----bent proper size breather tube---hooked everything back up

-Cabin heat valve leak---too hot in cockpit (you don't find this very often!!).  Ordered the cabin heat warm/cool mixer from Spruce.  I can tell this is going to work very well

-Turn-bank coord inop----replace with solid state turn and bank

-Installed hardmount (ram mount) on canopy frame for handheld GPS

-fuel injector drains had a fuel "trap" in them leading to a filter (not the air filter).  They had aluminum lines that carried fuel from the injector drain and carried it to the back of the oil sump.  Tygon lines carried the fuel from there to the filter.  Removed tygon lines

-I insist on knowing what my MP is so I can map out the horsepower---added MP gauge.

-Electrical system has two busses but is not set up for a true emergency bus.  In work to add diode between busses and to get a switched feed from the battery (jumping the solenoid)

-Axels have the camber the wrong way---will ignore for now and probably fix next winter.

The point is, this is what happens in better than normal circumstances---I am having fun---some things are a little frustrating----but you get a sense of accomplishment each time you check off one problem after another.  This is what experimental aviation is all about.  If you don't like or don't have the time for the above activities, don't get involved in experimental aviation.

A lot of my free time is spent flying, maintaining, or reading about flying----we are all kind of sick in the head like that.  I am so glad my wife likes to fly with me and help work on the plane

Strider

  • Guest
ever sick of airplanes?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2005, 10:44:47 PM »
There's the rub-  " we are all kind of sick in the head like that." I'm afraid I may get burned out on airplanes this year. I would never have thought there could even be a chance of this happening.

I work for a company which makes software to analyze data from training simulators and real aircraft FDR's. Airplane stuff all day long at work.

Lately we have been going up to the airport every evening after work until 9 or 10 PM to keep moving the new wheelpants and hershey-kiss spinner along (tired of working like slaves). We're hoping to have these on for Oshkosh. We have registered for the mass arrival Operation Glass Overcast at Oshkosh. Airplane, airplane every evening.

We will spend most of the weekend working on the wheelpants and spinner. Our friends nowadays are mostly pilots and most of these are EZ drivers. My wife Gail is a private pilot, and she is certainly a co-builder, not just a helper, on our VEZ and the Cozy Mark IV we are building. Airplane, airplane every weekend.

If I get a chance, I still want to complete the Mankato to Madison leg, and the entire return trip, a few more times in the simulator. I was practicing Mankato to Wittman. Now I'll also practice a separate flight between Madison and Wittman, for the mass arrival. I like to be very familiar with all of the airports that we will fly over enroute. This was helpful coming back from PHX/DVT. I get EAA Sport Pilot and AOPA magazines, and I have been getting AvWeek at my home since 1978. Airplane, airplane, airplane every chance in between.

And for our vacation? We're flying our airplane to AirVenture/Oshkosh, of course. Airplane, airplane, airplane. See what I mean?

Offline strake99

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
    • http://grahamshevlin.com/aviation
Re: Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2005, 05:20:57 PM »
Quote from: "a*v*8-ting"
I am ready to purchase a Vari or Long. I have read much on both.
I do however, see a great deal of EXPERIENCE/KNOWLEDGE with these birds on this web site. I would be honored if some of the "Pros" could provide their list of their "10 most important items" when buying a -eze?


I will have a go:

1. Build quality
2. Build quality
3. Build quality
4. How much local support did the builder have/use?
5. Are the deviations from plans due to the incorporation of modifications which are proven and which have a positive impact on safety and operability?
6. How much has the plane been flown recently?
7. Quality of avionics
8. Age/generation of avionics
9. Origin of engine (in conjunction with 6)

I'm stopping there. Let me now expand on these items:
1-3. From a safety/longevity perspective, a well-built plane is a must. If the plane is well-built but has obsolete avionics, well, you can invest $$$ in new avionics. If it won't fly straight because the wings are unequal in dimensions, there is not much you can do about that to permanently and properly correct the problem apart from building one or more new wings, which requires skills that you may not possess.
In passing, I should note that I was specifically warned off a poorly-built Long-EZ in 2000 when I was looking for one, my advisor at the time commenting that it was possibly the worst-looking plane of its type that he had ever seen, and he was hoping that the pilot would be grounded before he killed himself...
4.  Some builders operate either in areas where there are no other builders nearby, or they shut themselves off in a cocoon and "do their own thing". I would be slightly wary of any plane built under those circumstances. The best way to prevent silly errors is to have somebody more experienced than you looking over your shoulder. I once came across a Velocity RG project in a hangar near where I live. The builder was an elderly guy, and his engine installation (which was a Mazda 13B) was the weirdest, ugliest and most bizarre-looking I had ever seen. As we left the hangar, my colleague (a Long-EZ builder) remarked that with any luck the guy would be grounded before he could fly it...my plane was built by the original builder with support from some of the best Long-EZ gurus out there, and it shows, not only in the build quality and attention to detail, but also in the way that improvements have been incorporated into it to reduce flight risks and improve operability.
5.  Very few plans-built planes are built exactly to plans. This is particularly true of planes such as the Long-EZ, where the plans were not sold after 1986, and where a lot of interesting and useful modifications originated in builder communities. 3 examples - the long nose, removal of the lower winglets, the use of an O-320 originated in the builder community, and improvements like this have never been officially endorsed by RAF or Burt Rutan. Other improvements such as nose lifts, electric trim systems, gas canopy struts are also recent developments. If you find deviations from plans, and the seller is the original builder, it is worth asking why the deviations exist. If the builder has been "freelancing" and implementing modifications not already successfully used elsewhere, I would be wary.
Example - my plane has a common sump under the rear seat. This modification was previously made by several East Coast builders, and is proven in operation. Therefore it was a modification with next to no downside and significant upside.
6. If a plane has been flown infrequently, there is more chance that you will discover problems, expecially with the engine. The more recip aircraft engines are flown the longer they last. A plane that has sat around in a hangar, particularly in a humid climate, may be hiding significant current or future engine issues.
7.  Cheap avionics are likely to prove inaccurate and troublesome. A case in point is engine data guages. I have spoken to folks working in the automotive industry who have made the point that good-quality guages are not cheap - expect to pay in excess of $150 for good ones. Cheap ones are inaccurate and just do not last. This may be significant since some builders make a lot of use of automotive guages for engine data display purposes.
8.  Ancient avionics are a pain; they are heavy, prone to failures which are expensive to repair (ask me how I know this), and with the limited panel size in a tandem canard pusher, getting enough "steam guage era" instruments into the basic panel design is a challenge. Having said that, they can be reliable and useful. I have a transponder in my plane that is 30 years old, and in weight approximates to a small boat anchor. However, the last time it was tested, it worked perfectly, and the last person that overhauled it told me that it is 30-40% more powerful than most modern transponders. So,..as long as it works OK, it is a good piece of equipment. At the end of the day, if the avionics are obsolete,you can re-design the panel and retrofit the latest and greatest all-singing all-dancing EFIS, engine monitors etc. All that takes is $$$ and some time.
9.   Based on my experience with the Lycoming engine in my Long-EZ, I would submit that there is a tendency for engine builders to assemble engines differently once a builder utters the "E" word to them. The rules allow you to put almost any type of engine of known or unknown origin on your plane. (Wood-burning? Why not? Automotive? Have At It). Leaving aside the large discussion potential around the use of non-aviation engines, I would try to find out as much as possible about the origin of the engine. If the engine was built and is maintained to yellow tag standards and all ADs are complied with, I would be a lot more comfortable than if the engine "fell off the back of a truck", has no logs, and no AD compliance records are available.
My current credit card debt is a direct result of discovering that the engine as installed in my plane was a Heinz 57 assemblage of bits and pieces with a number of ADs not complied with. I had it rebuilt following a valve train failure to "yellow tag" standards with all ADs complied with, and now it is 25 hp more powerful, and more importantly, I have a much higher degree of confidence in what is turning the bladed thingy at the back.

Some of my $0.02. Remainder being saved for my Oshkosh presentation or my Barbara Walters interview. Your mileage may vary.

Graham Shevlin
N131JF
Designed by Burt, Built by Jesse Huerta
Graham Shevlin
N131JF
Designed by Burt, Built by Jesse Huerta
http://grahamshevlin.com/aviation

A*v*8-ting

  • Guest
Eze MUST HAVES
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2005, 08:59:15 PM »
Excellent overview Graham. Look forward to meeting you at Oshkosh!

Thank You and Regards,

Allan

Offline strake99

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
    • http://grahamshevlin.com/aviation
Re: Eze MUST HAVES
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2005, 02:01:02 PM »
Quote from: "A*v*8-ting"
Excellent overview Graham. Look forward to meeting you at Oshkosh!

Thank You and Regards,

Allan


Well, I hope to be at OSH from Saturday through Tuesday...but I had my tongue in my cheek when I said I was presenting...maybe someday I will get to present. Lots of builders get to present, but non-builders tend to be overlooked, because, after all. we cheated.
I have enough interesting stuff to present after 5 years of non-builder ownership, including several mea culpas (aka the "D'Oh! Maintenance Moments").
Graham Shevlin
N131JF
Designed by Burt, Built by Jesse Huerta
http://grahamshevlin.com/aviation

Offline Drew

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
    • http://home.earthlink.net/~swensonaw/
Vari & Long-eze MUST HAVES!
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2005, 11:11:41 PM »
<snip>7) IFR? Losta luck

 Do you really want to expose yourself to all the experimental restrictions? <snip>

I am on my second experimental (first a Longez and now a Cozy MKIV).  I made both IFR in rather short order.  Not sure I understand what you mean.  Also, what real restrictions do I have in the experimental cat?  I think that I have more in the certified cat.  For certified planes, I have to buy the certified part---and pay the extra cost---even for things like sun shields!!

I can put an alternator in my experimental (buy the part) anywhere from 35 bucks to 100 bucks.  You are talking at least 300 bucks for a certified aircraft.  And I can guarantee you that you are not getting a 200 dollar better quality and safer alternator.  Oh----and you will need to pay someone to put that alternator on for you.

I will never own a certified airplane because of all the restrictions---not the other way around.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML