Long EZ Gs...

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Offline asaybe

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Long EZ Gs...
« on: April 29, 2006, 10:15:09 PM »
From a design point of view, how many Gs (positive and negative) can the Long EZ take???? People keep asking me and not really sure what to answer...

Thanks,
Afif Saybe
HR-ATQ-Honduras

Offline spy

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2006, 10:35:18 PM »
:shock:  
   the question is how much can the pilot take before blacking out?

Offline Drew

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 04:44:13 AM »
The allowable envelope as depicted in the manual is +5 to -2.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline asaybe

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 08:16:41 PM »
Thanks for the clarification of the envelope...

Regards,
Afif

Offline allen

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 10:24:45 AM »
Anybody out there have a G meter and if so, how many G's have you actually pulled? Frank Pulluno (I'm certain I have butchered the spelling, sorry) once said he pulled +3 doing his formation work. I would be very interested to know what the max G's have been in a long.

Al Hodges recalls a flight gone bad that he was certain the wings were gone when he encountered severe up and down drafts.

So how about it. Lets hear some tall tails. :wink:
Allen
Long-Ez N701DS
1998 O-320 160HP
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Offline Lance Hooley

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 12:22:26 PM »
I remember sometime in the past....say 1978....something about a design limit of + or - 15 G's.  This was to ensure against different builder abilities...ie leave some slop for sloppy building.  Personally anything over 9 g's tends to make me sick.
Lance

Offline Waiter

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 12:50:58 PM »
+5 and -1.5 on mine

Every EZ is different, I would never attempt these maneuvers unless the aircraft has been through a complete envelope expansion series.

My EZ is at the AFT CG limit and been through the full expansion. Vne is placarded at 240kts.

Plus 3 is easy to sustain, This requires about 60 degree of bank at 160 kts, a fairly tight turn,

Plus 5 can be held in a tight 90 degree spiral at about 140 to 160 kts. There are two problems in sustaining +5, The high airspeed is difficult to sustain and bleeds off very fast, and the canard stalls out. A forward CG EZ will probably not be able to get to 5 G's before the canard stalls.

It been my observation that the more G's loaded on the canard, the more pronounced the canard stall becomes. At + 5 the canard stall is more like a "bang" than a gentle pitch oscillation.

Negative G's are difficult to sustain as they require a substantial nose down attitude (Stick forward, aircraft inverted).  Although I've never made an actual measurement, I would estimate a deck angle of minus 22 degrees is required to hold level (inverted) flight at 140kts.  I've never went slower than this as I'm concerned about wing stalling  with these really weird angles!

I'm sure there are others who have more experience in "unusual Attitudes" in the EZ than I.

Be careful out there!

Waiter
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Offline Jeffco

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G's
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 01:11:07 PM »
Didn't Burt test to faliure a canard that finally gave way at 11 G's ?  Thought I saw that in one of the Pushers.
Jeff
Long ez N141

Offline Lance Hooley

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 03:54:50 PM »
I think you are correct.  I believe Burt designed the G's for 15....understanding not everybody would be able to build .....accurately....thereby giving a margin of error in construction from airplane to airplane.  However.....if you encounter more than 9 G's in flying...it will usually involve a sudden stoppage with dirt.  I would think G ability of the airframe would not matter then.  It's still gonna hurt.
Lance

Offline asaybe

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2006, 04:09:30 PM »
Thank for the insight...I've done some hard banks at high speed and the aircraft perfoms real good (as a personal feeling). Nevertheless, i believe that the experience you have encounter with your personal aircraft provides extremely valuable knowledge to us which didn't build our craft. I could never see myself at 9gs, however, If I ever encouter a situation of 3+Gs, I would like to still can keep the smile on my face.... :D

Offline NWade

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2006, 04:44:30 PM »
Jeff -

I've seen a Long-EZ wing static test to 6.5 G's (CP #26) with apparently a lot of safety-margin remaining.  I've also seen the photos of a canard (not sure if GU or Roncz) being sand-bagged to nearly 12 G's.

BUT, it is important to remember (as others have pointed out) that each aircraft is different!!  This is due to different materials, skill-levels, different epoxy applications (as well as temperatures and cure-cycles), etc.

Having said all that, I think the biggest issue in any kind of high-G-load maneuver with the plane is that it will probably be made while descending.  The planes don't have big beefy motors to haul them through the air at high speeds or with lots of energy - they are only fast because they are extremely low-drag, light-weight, and efficient.  As a result, level or climbing maneuvers will probably bleed lots of energy & speed.  A descending high-G maneuver could lead to an overspeed and breakup / flutter / crash long before the structure itself gave under the G-load itself.

Bottom line:  You can do limited aerobatics in an EZ - but there's a difference between what the plane *can* do and what it was *designed* to do.  If I ever had my own EZ, I would no doubt pull a few G's or rolls now and then...  But I am always mindful that Burt has maintained the airplane's primary use is as a high-speed economical cross-country cruiser - NOT a stunt plane.

Take care,

--Noel

Offline Drew

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2006, 05:39:13 PM »
From my experience in fighters, GA, and centrifuges, 2-4 Gs are kind of fun to fly---you get that cool squished down feeling from gravity tugging on you.  In the 6 G range---sustained (where Tomcats like to fly), it is pretty much a workout.  The G-suit is squeezing the crap out of you, the G-straining maneuver (otherwise known as the Hook) is tiring---and after only a couple of minutes you are sweaty, out of breath, coughing (G-hack), etc.  Nine Gs just plain hurts (never wore combat edge gear---so don't know how much that helps).  I have never been to 9 Gs in a plane (even though I have 10 or more hours in a plane that can do it (F-16)-----but I have been to 9 in the centrifuge.  Came out like everyone else----G-measles.  Hundreds of little red dots (broken blood vessels) on my legs where the G-suit did not cover them----and on my arms.

The Longez and Cozy (Cozy rated to a little less Gs) have plenty of G to play with to have fun.  And as you can see from prior posts, it is going to be hard for you to get there unless you purposely abuse the airplane.  The canard has gone thru several static tests---and as you can read for yourself, it appears that it has a safety margin somewhere between 2-3----which is good.  Don't pull beyond the stated value (5 Gs).

The allowable envelope may be -2 G.  However, keep in mind that when you unload to less than 1 G----and get close zero------and feel your butt lift off the seat-----that is what your fuel is doing too----and your engine will stop.  As soon as you put G back on the plane, the engine should start back up (should...)----but I am not big into having engines stop.

I was demonstrating stalls and pitch buck to the guy I sold my Longez to.  My Longez at "stall" had a slight pitch buck and would keep climbing in the "stalled condition"----nice thing about an O320.  When you are done with the stall and want to transition back to cruise, you just relax the stick a little.  The new guy decided to not gently relax the pressure----but to shove the stick forward.  Ok---I (we) hit the canopy.  Whatever was in my lap was now somewhere else.  We were now heading straight down----and with no motor noise------200 indicated coming up real quick.  I called that I have the plane-----smooth pull on the nose back to the horizon----and the motor started back up.------Watch the negative Gs (or really anything less than 1).

In the Tomcat, we never really go to neg G operationally.  We go to zero G all the time to extend and "bugout".  When you unload to 0 G, you get rid of most of your drag due to lift---and can accelerate extra quick.  Our engines can only take that maneuver for a certain amount of time at Military rated power (much less than a minute)----and even less in blower.  The only time we would really go to neg G was for a maint flight.  One of the checks is a neg G FOD check.  It is neg 1 G (inverted flight)---not extremely comfortable-----sitting on your head rarely is---and you get to see all the dirt, crud, and loose parts hit the canopy

When you own your airplane---other considerations come into account.  The engine sitting on the back is pretty expensive (at least it is to me).  I pretty much baby it.  I don't really like to put lots of G on the plane, nor put lots of gyroscopic forces on it.  I never do descents less than 15 inches to prevent ring chatter, don't take off until the engine has good oil temp, etc.

The Longez and Cozy are fun cruising machines----lots of fun to fly formation in.  If you want any more than some mild acrobatics like wingovers, you really need to get another plane.

So what am I trying to say...  You have enough G on the plane to have some fun---don't hurt yourself.  You are not missing anything in the neg G category.  You are not missing anything beyond 4 Gs.  The only thing you are missing is the 0 G---which I don't recommend in the Long or Cozy.  Lots of fun in a plane like a P-3---get to "fly" across the tube---or hang out in mid air!
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline maprather

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2006, 11:01:51 AM »
Err..  Isn't sustained level flight, 60deg bank 2G?  Not 3G..  3G would 70.5deg bank.

G's = 1/(cos(bank_angle)) or bank_angle_for_g = inv_cos(1/G)


Regards,

Matt-

Quote from: "Waiter"
+5 and -1.5 on mine

Every EZ is different, I would never attempt these maneuvers unless the aircraft has been through a complete envelope expansion series.

My EZ is at the AFT CG limit and been through the full expansion. Vne is placarded at 240kts.

Plus 3 is easy to sustain, This requires about 60 degree of bank at 160 kts, a fairly tight turn,

Plus 5 can be held in a tight 90 degree spiral at about 140 to 160 kts. There are two problems in sustaining +5, The high airspeed is difficult to sustain and bleeds off very fast, and the canard stalls out. A forward CG EZ will probably not be able to get to 5 G's before the canard stalls.

It been my observation that the more G's loaded on the canard, the more pronounced the canard stall becomes. At + 5 the canard stall is more like a "bang" than a gentle pitch oscillation.

Negative G's are difficult to sustain as they require a substantial nose down attitude (Stick forward, aircraft inverted).  Although I've never made an actual measurement, I would estimate a deck angle of minus 22 degrees is required to hold level (inverted) flight at 140kts.  I've never went slower than this as I'm concerned about wing stalling  with these really weird angles!

I'm sure there are others who have more experience in "unusual Attitudes" in the EZ than I.

Be careful out there!

Waiter

Offline Waiter

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Long EZ Gs...
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2006, 11:10:38 AM »
Yup, Sounds closer than my "about"

 Math wins every time.

Waiter
LongEZ-RG   >>    N961EZ
O-320 160hp  >>    MT Constant Speed Prop
F-16 Performance, On a Piper Cub Budget
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