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Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: flyboy on March 08, 2009, 07:50:16 PM

Title: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: flyboy on March 08, 2009, 07:50:16 PM
i've spent a lot of time looking for a Varieze, but am starting to wonder if I shouldn't just consider a Long EZ instead.  I am interested in hearing what your preferences are and why.  I appreciate your feedback and helping me make the right decision.
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: easyrider on March 09, 2009, 03:28:47 PM
Burt Rutan always considered the LongEZ was the natural progression of the Varieze.
If you decide on a LongEZ go for an O-320, although the O-235 is adequate it takes a lot of runway to get airborne on a hot day with a passenger and over 20 galls. of gas.I bought an O-235 LongEZ 5 years ago and it's a great aircraft but it is significantly slower than my Norcal buddies with their O-320's and I'm getting tired of being tail end charlie on our weekend flights.I had an O-320 lined up to purchase and then the mortgage sub prime hit and my retirement dollars went down the Stock Market drain.Maybe I should have worked for Lehman Bros. and picked up a subsidized severance package.
Which ever you choose they are great aircraft
Easyrider
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Dave in Eugene on March 09, 2009, 10:23:31 PM
There both great... I would recommend going to a canard gathering and seeing for yourself. Think about Columbia 1st weekend in May...The long gives the option of packing enough gear for 2 people to camp without pods..including tent and pads and sleeping bag...this was a requirement for me when we bought.

A vari is a tight squeeze but cool plane for sure...

Good luck with you quest.

Dave
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: allen on March 10, 2009, 10:37:19 AM
Not long ago I was facing the same decision. Ultimately I bought a Long-Ez with an O-320, so I can only speak for my personal preferences here.

The first thing I did was to decide what my mission would be. For me, I wanted adventure. This in turn translates to lots of distance flying, not just converting gas into noise over the local practice area. Obviously economy was an issue, but this was marginal between the two planes in my view.

Second, I needed to plan for the “Wife Factor”. If she is not comfortable, we’re not comfortable. She would need space. Not just personal, but as with most women, she travels in bulk. Thus, we needed baggage space. The Long-Ez offered more interior space. Granted baggage pods could solve this with the Veri-Eze, but at a cost to the useful load.

Third was cost. You can buy a lot more VE for the price of a Long-Ez. This was a big stumbling block for me. This became a question of compromise and cost. I spent a significant amount of time on this.

Finally I had to factor in ancillary costs. In this case, insurance was a determining factor. A few phone calls reveled only a few places would bother to insure a Veri-Eze with my total time of only 130 hours, and perhaps 10 hours in type.

In the end the LE offered more interior room for both of us, I could insure it, and it satisfied the adventure requirement. Strictly speaking, the Long-Ez simply offered better bang for my very limited buck.  From the cost standpoint, in my heart I knew that if money were no option I would buy a top of the line Long-Ez. However money is an issue, but I knew that I would not be completely happy with the Vari-Eze. Ultimately I bought a bit less Long-Ez, but managed to get a big motor and a few other cool features.

Honestly, I can say that I have zero regrets with my choice save one; I wish I could have built it.

As mentioned already, you would be very well served to get out and log some stick time in both. You would not buy a car without a test drive, and we are talking about roughly the same amount of money. So get out there and get a few test drives. This is a friendly crowed and you should have no trouble getting a ride. If you find yourself in Salem Va, drop me an email and I’ll take you out for a burger and get you some time.

Whatever you decide I doubt that you will be disappointed. These planes are beyond description on the fun meter.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Bruce Hughes on March 10, 2009, 11:56:07 AM
Hi Flyboy

I don't know your name or where you live.  Let us know both or at
least where you live.  Someone in the CSA can tell you the names and
some phone numbers so you can check out some flying Variezes and
Longezes.  I would send a list but I am away from home for several
weeks.

Don't forget the Cozies, Eracers, Aerocanards, and Berkuts.

The best information you can get may be from Tim LeDolce and Joe
Person.  Both fly Variezes which they built.  They will give you a very
fair comparison.  Burrell Sanders is also a very good source for information
on all canard types.

If you join the CSA, you will get a directory that lists all members.  This
list is arranged by states so you can see who is building and/or flying
in your area.   Best $30 you will spend on airplanes.

Bruce Hughes   :)
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: flyboy on March 10, 2009, 03:32:44 PM
thanks for the great advice guys.  Allen I'm at the point where you were some time ago.  Struggling on the decision to buy a VE or wait and get a LE and painfully weighing both in my mind.  Factor in there's a share for sale in a really nice Piper Archer II at my home airport, and I'm about to go nuts. 

Are there any major differences in flight characteristics and maintenance between the VE and LE?  What about useful load concerns on the VE?   
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Joe Person on March 10, 2009, 11:31:42 PM
I'll weigh in a bit here.

Flight characteristics (VEZ compared to LEZ):  Similar, but the LEZ has better harmony between pitch and roll - the VEZ is a little more sensitive in pitch, but just an aspect that one gets used to.  Nothing I would write home about, unless you are ham-fisted and try to fly the airplane with your whole arm.  The VariEze is a little hotter on landing, but the addition of trailing edge fences does a fair bit to knock off some knots required for approach and landing.

Useful load:

By-the-book, the LEZ standard max gross is 1325 pounds, with allowance to go to 1420 or 1425 with limitations (See Page 39 of the LEZ Owner's manual in the Downloads section of this website).  The VariEze, by-the-book, and assuming correctly-built sparcaps & wing fitting interfaces (one does not know this unless they built the airplane, and built up the sparcaps and shear webs in stages like I did), is limted to 1050 pounds, and 1110 pounds max over-gross (with similar limitations as the LEZ).  Rutan recommended tighter limitations on VariEzes (lower max g limits at +2.5 gs) based on forensic examination of a VariEze that had "swelled" sparcaps immediately adjacent to the wing fitting .125 inch plates.

My Eze is 617 pounds empty, and by-the-book, I have an almost 500 pound useful load.  As the builder, I opted to placard my Eze to 1200 pounds.    Doing the math, a Long-EZ, by the book, would have to weigh around 920 pounds empty to have the same useful load.  Many Long-EZs out there are this heavy or heavier, and consequently are operated beyond the max gross weight prescribed by Rutan.

One thing to look at with either airplane is the empty weight, and the placarded max gross weight.  I'm sure there are non-builder owners who operate beyond the weight that is physically placarded as the max weight for their airplane - doing this, and having a crack-up, and having a determination made that one was operating beyond the placarded weight can have some fun legal and insurance consequences.

Regardless of the type you may purchase, definitely have a qualified builder of the same type have a good look at your potential purchase.  Also, if looking at a VariEze, make sure any help you have in assessing the condition of the airplane is done by an experienced VariEze builder - there are some differences in the VariEze (wing attach, for example) that a Long-EZ-only builder may not undertand well enough to give a sound evaluation.

I have flown 5 different Long-EZs, and two VariEzes over the past 22 years.  Each one had some small level of uniqueness, based on fit, finish, engine type, etc.  They all flew very well.  I am partial to the VariEze because it suits my mission requirements.  My far-better half enjoys local flights, and some cross-country work, and I made every effort to ensure the back seat fit her profile as well as possible.  This is key.  Having built my Ezes, I added one inch of width, primarily to give a little more shoulder room for the back-seater.  I'm 6' and 210 pounds, and broad-shouldered.  A "stock" VariEze's upper longerons made solid contact with my shoulders , in the back seat.  One inch of extra width back there made significant difference.  The Long-EZ is about 1.5 to 2 inches wider than a VariEze, inside, which is a big difference if you or your back seater are big people.

Hope this helps,

-Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
Bothell, WA  (KPAE)

Good luck

Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Joe Person on March 10, 2009, 11:32:31 PM
I'll weigh in a bit here.

Flight characteristics (VEZ compared to LEZ):  Similar, but the LEZ has better harmony between pitch and roll - the VEZ is a little more sensitive in pitch, but just an aspect that one gets used to.  Nothing I would write home about, unless you are ham-fisted and try to fly the airplane with your whole arm.  The VariEze is a little hotter on landing, but the addition of trailing edge fences does a fair bit to knock off some knots required for approach and landing.

Useful load:

By-the-book, the LEZ standard max gross is 1325 pounds, with allowance to go to 1420 or 1425 with limitations (See Page 39 of the LEZ Owner's manual in the Downloads section of this website).  The VariEze, by-the-book, and assuming correctly-built sparcaps & wing fitting interfaces (one does not know this unless they built the airplane, and built up the sparcaps and shear webs in stages like I did), is limted to 1050 pounds, and 1110 pounds max over-gross (with similar limitations as the LEZ).  Rutan recommended tighter limitations on VariEzes (lower max g limits at +2.5 gs) based on forensic examination of a VariEze that had "swelled" sparcaps immediately adjacent to the wing fitting .125 inch plates.

My Eze is 617 pounds empty, and by-the-book, I have an almost 500 pound useful load.  As the builder, I opted to placard my Eze to 1200 pounds.    Doing the math, a Long-EZ, by the book, would have to weigh around 920 pounds empty to have the same useful load.  Many Long-EZs out there are this heavy or heavier, and consequently are operated beyond the max gross weight prescribed by Rutan.

One thing to look at with either airplane is the empty weight, and the placarded max gross weight.  I'm sure there are non-builder owners who operate beyond the weight that is physically placarded as the max weight for their airplane - doing this, and having a crack-up, and having a determination made that one was operating beyond the placarded weight can have some fun legal and insurance consequences.

Regardless of the type you may purchase, definitely have a qualified builder of the same type have a good look at your potential purchase.  Also, if looking at a VariEze, make sure any help you have in assessing the condition of the airplane is done by an experienced VariEze builder - there are some differences in the VariEze (wing attach, for example) that a Long-EZ-only builder may not undertand well enough to give a sound evaluation.

I have flown 5 different Long-EZs, and two VariEzes over the past 22 years.  Each one had some small level of uniqueness, based on fit, finish, engine type, etc.  They all flew very well.  I am partial to the VariEze because it suits my mission requirements.  My far-better half enjoys local flights, and some cross-country work, and I made every effort to ensure the back seat fit her profile as well as possible.  This is key.  Having built my Ezes, I added one inch of width, primarily to give a little more shoulder room for the back-seater.  I'm 6' and 210 pounds, and broad-shouldered.  A "stock" VariEze's upper longerons made solid contact with my shoulders , in the back seat.  One inch of extra width back there made significant difference.  The Long-EZ is about 1.5 to 2 inches wider than a VariEze, inside, which is a big difference if you or your back seater are big people.

Hope this helps,

-Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
Bothell, WA  (KPAE)

Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Dave in Eugene on March 11, 2009, 07:46:42 PM
Common Joe...once more...with feeling....(good to hear ya as always)

Dave
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Bruce Hughes on March 12, 2009, 11:46:23 AM
Hi Flyboy

Joe made the point but I want to make it AGAIN.  The weight of a Varieze or Longeze
is VERY important.  Mine has not flown but I know that it is VERY heavy.  NOT GOOD.   >:(

I will fly mine (not finished yet) but you would be crazy to buy one that weighs even
close to the weight. 

What is your name?

Bruce Hughes   :)
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Vandy12 on May 05, 2009, 07:24:34 PM
Great info here gang-  Having not (yet) flown in either, my opinion as of now is shaped by (1) price, and (2) will the wife fit comfortably in this thing...comfortable enough to make it an enjoyable flight for the both of us.  She's only 5'2" and about a buck-ten, so I'm sure it won't be too tight of a squeeze.

How about the canopy?  Is there a great deal of difference in the visibility?  I've heard the Long has a bit of a lower "deck angle" on approach/takeoff, helping the forward vis.  And i'm all about avoiding a claustrophic feeling for any pax i may carry.

Anybody do any real XC flying in the VEZ?  Without the baggage space, We may have to do the "draggage" pods...

Cheers!
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on May 06, 2009, 07:46:19 AM
Vandy12

PLEASE tell us your name AND where you live (at least the state).   We can tell you who
lives in your area, from the CSA directory.   Did you join the CSA?   It is a good idea.

Bruce Hughes    :)
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: Vandy12 on May 06, 2009, 11:31:30 AM
Sorry about that..  Name's Brian Strack, I live in Enid, OK.  Been flying T-1s as an instructor with the Air Force until recently.  Any 'local' birds I can take a look at would help!  Haven't signed up for CSA yet...but that will be maybe this week.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Brian
Title: Re: Long EZ vs Varieze. What's your take?
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on May 06, 2009, 05:19:34 PM
Hi Brian

OK   There are 6 CSA members in Oklahoma, to my knowledge.  Call Lowell
Dodson at 918-231-7079; he is the "state representative" for OK so he
will know the canard guys whether they belong to CSA or not.   Lives
in Tulsa, as does Greg Garee and Charlie Harris.   Others live in Stillwater,
Moore, and Sand Springs.   There are 3 Variezes, 2 Longezes, and 1 Cozy.
HOWEVER all 6 may just be in construction; I have no way to know.

The $30 for CSA is worth it.  You get a directory and 4 newsletters.

Let us know if you have any problem reaching Lowell.

Bruce Hughes    :)