Vortex Generators

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Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2006, 02:18:30 PM »
Thanks Drew...  I am going to take my canard home with me this weekend..set it up on saw horses in my living room and get sticky. thanks,

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Drew

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2006, 04:24:09 PM »
I did mine right at the airport.  It does not take long to draw on the locations with a marker and it does not take long to stick them on.  In case anyone if confused reading my prior post----I did this my Longez with a GU canard to cure bad pitch trim changes in rain.  I had no problems until I converted the plane for IFR.  So...if you don't intend to fly IFR----or just occasionally fly thru the rain VFR, this is not that big of a deal.  If you are VFR only, you may want to consider leaving them off since the canard will be much easier to clean.

Did not want to confuse people since my signature block says "Cozy."  I have no vgs on my Cozy--don't need them.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2006, 05:18:14 PM »
Drew,

My story  includes landing in the rain and watching the bottem fall out  6' above the runway...makes sense in retrosepct. Pitch down = loss of lift. Loss of Lift = higher stall speed...

I believe this information belongs in some of the "How to Fly Canards" articles... everything that I had read previously about flying in the rain said..."no worries" trim and enjoy it... this is all good except on final approach....

thanks,

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Drew

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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 07:01:09 AM »
Dave,
I agree in all that you have said.  Just to add on how I fly my aircraft. When I was configured for VFR only, I never flew through the rain.  I know that there are plenty of times you can fly in the rain while it is still VMC----but I chose not to.

Even configured for IFR, I pretty much avoid the rain due to the prop getting chewed up.  I do fly through the rain when I have to--but you really have to come back on the power to limit the damage on the prop.

So the times my Longez was really being effected was going in and out of the clouds.  Massive trim changes going in and out of the clouds.  While in the clouds, the trim was all the way aft---not good.  Vgs tamed the beast.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2006, 10:48:48 AM »
The joys of living in the Northwest include rain for sure... thanks for the discussion. Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2006, 10:10:10 AM »
VG's Installed... Ran it down the runway... no noticeable difference. My tech advisor has directed me to the FAA FSDO to discuss a major change... did not realize this going in so if anyone is considering it should know that it is part of the process. I'll update the assigned requirement when I know it.

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Drew

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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2006, 10:59:43 AM »
Major change??  No waaaaay!!  Oh brother...
Anyway, here is what you do.  Make sure that you have the current airworthy certificate with the operating limitation.  That is, make sure that your certificate is the one with the "newer" language.  If it is not, you can go to your FSDO to exchange the old copy for the new copy----this is what I did for my Longez-----hanging a O320+new prop-----which is definately a major change.

The new rules (stipulated on the airworthiness cert/op limits) allows you to make major changes without going back to the FAA----but it does delineate the steps you need to do to "self certify"----my words.

The gist of it is that you have a flyoff period, a operating radius, and you need to flight test and determine VX and VY.  Then there is some particular language that you write in your aircraft logbook----all spelled out in the airworthiness cert/op limits.

My guess if you are being directed back to the FSDO is that either you have the old style airworthiness cert (which you will need to go back to the FSDO to change) or your tech advisor is not aware of this.

As a point of reference, I went to Van Nuys FSDO to do mine for my Longez.  The guys I dealt with barely knew what experimental planes where.  I got a tip (Beagle) of where a FSDO was that knew exactly how to do it---did it all the time.  I went there to get it done---no problems.  They did ask why I was coming to them instead of Van Nuys.  I told her that all the canard guys in Southern CA were going to her because she knew what she was doing.

If interested in the specific language, when I get back home, I can dig it up and post it.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2006, 11:10:04 AM »
Thanks.. The cat is out of the bag... and I am waiting for a call back. I do have the older language which ...sounds like it would be good to exchange. thanks for the tip.

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline EZPILOT742X

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2006, 02:05:39 PM »
Hey guys, would you mind telling me which FSDO is the good one that I should go to?  It's paperwork time and I hope to be ready for inspections in a couple months. I work at Van Nuys airport and base at Whiteman.. but you're right, very few people seem to identify with experimental aircraft at VNY.

Chris

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2006, 04:19:15 PM »
Great news! Mike Robertson at the Portland FSDO told me that VG's are a "minor change" and only require a log book entry... Excellent...Now I am going to screw up the courage to push the throttle forward and leave it there.

Thanks..Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Drew

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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2006, 05:07:48 PM »
Dave,
Don't worry.  If your plane was flying fine before VGs, it will fly fine after (as long as you put the Vgs at or behind the 50% chord on the canard.  The main risk in VGs is having them forward of the 50% chord on the canard AND getting near stall speed (like doing intentional stalls).  It may be possible for the canard to not stall when it should leading to a main wing stall.  50% or aft will keep the flow attached for rain yet let the canard stall when it should.  Even if you did install them forward of the 50% chord, you would still have no problems in flight or in takeoff/landing.  It would pretty much handle the same----until you intentionally stall the plane.

You do not need to do a highspeed taxi test for this----the highspeed taxi test carries more risk than the thing you are concerned about (unless you are on a loong runway).

The only thing to really flight test is the stall.  Get above 10 K for the test.  Slowly bring the plane to a stall---don't let it go too far below your prior pitch buck speed.  If the plane pitch bucks, you are home free.

Chris,
I skipped Van Nuys (I was based at Camarillo at the time) and went to Long Beach.  I think the person I talked to was Kathy---but don't remember her last name.  Sort of be prepared to have a good answer (even if honest) as to why you are coming to Long Beach instead of Van Nuys.

For Van Nuys, it was as though they never heard of experimental aviation.
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Joe Person

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VGs & Major change
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2006, 08:00:53 PM »
Drew,

Oh brother????

What stipulates that addition of VGs on a primary flight surface would be, or not be, a Major change? (Answer to this a bit later...)

My T/C advice to Dave was based on:

1.  Older Ops Limitations

2.  Definition of Major change

3.  My 20 years as an engineer in the airplane biz (currently a Certification Engineer - yes, Part 25 is bigger and nastier, but Part 21 applies all around).  I do airplane Certification & Major/Minor Determinations for a living these days.

The approach I suggested to Dave was conservative.  Addition of VGs could easily be determined to be a Major change, as they can be shown to have an appreciable effect (Appreciable, meaning measurable, for simplicity's sake) on the performance and/or handling characteristics of the airplane.  Dave's operating limitations were of the "older " variety (circa 1988), and thus required him to contact FSDO.  A prudent thing to do, when in doubt, especially for those who did not build their airplane.  The Bill Davenport incident should continue to be a reminder to all operators of experimental homebuilts regarding adherence to Ops Limitations.  Sorry, but playing below the table (i.e. not following your Ops Limitations with respect to making changes to the airplane) is something that can only work against us.  Knowing the the requirements of your airplane's operating limitations is paramount.  To be ignorant of them, or worse, to dismiss them, is bad ju-ju.

Now then, as I counseled Dave, not all FSDOs are created equal.  My put to him is that he needed to find out what his local FSDO would say, based on his situation.  I also gave him some talking points to better poise him for dealing with the FSDO, regarding the VG installation.  In the end, the FSDO called "Minor", and all is kosher.  I certainly would not dare do battle with the FAA and tell them that I was still convinced the VGs constituted a "Major", after such a ruling (unless I got paid for it, like in my day job)...  Other FSDOs could easily say otherwise (if only for an excuse to get some of the inspectors out of the office and looking at some real hardware).

"Shopping for FSDOs" is possible, but as things progess in the FAA, such a practice will become less and less possible.  There are continuing efforts in the FAA regarding what is called "harmonization" - this, driven by the need to make the world's skies a more level playing field, with respect to the various regulatory agencies of the world, and their respective regulations.  This will have a trickle-down effect within the FAA.  I have already seen more standarization between two different Aircraft Certification Offices in the past year, for example.  Fortunately for you FSDO shoppers, this is still a way's out.

Dave has a nice set of test flight parameters detailed by a competent EAA Flight Advisor, in order to test his VG installation in a safe manner.

Cheers,

-Joe Person
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
VariEze N79JN
Bothell, WA  (KPAE)
Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
Cozy #879 Under Construction
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
Bothell, WA (KPAE)

Offline Drew

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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2006, 10:03:02 PM »
Joe,
I don't blame you for being conservative.  I don't see the addition of VGs as being a major change.  Evidently, the FSDO that Dave went to did not either.  However, this may have not been the case at another FSDO (of which I would have never seen that coming---and would have gotten hammered if something weird happened---even if not attributable to the VGs---I don't always trust the FAA to use logic in their conclusions).

I did not mean for people to shop FSDOs.  I meant to say that Van Nuys did not know what they were doing when it came to Experimental Airworthiness certs----it was like they had never seen one before (what are operating limitations?)---this had nothing to do with getting a ruling.  
I would also not do battle with the FAA over a ruling----but I would rather do the cert myself

If you know what you are doing (and you make a good point mentioning that there are those that don't), then the best thing to do is to have the new cert and document / flight test all your major changes.  If you don't know what you are doing, then make sure you consult the FSDO or tech advisor.

Bill made changes to his airplane that were not smart.  His case was definately a learning point (what does constitute a major change?---many people on both sides of the fence)-----but in the end not a smart move.

Joe, is there a good guide for major changes?  In my mind a change in prop or engine constitutes a major change (and evidently changes to the fuel system too).  You mention things that would have an appreciable effect on performance or handling.  What about wheel pants?  They make the plane go appreciably faster---yet I would have also never called it a major change nor do the flight testing/documentation for it.  Am I wrong again?


And Joe---thanks again for the bushings and handwritten directions---they worked perfectly as you said they would!!
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Joe Person

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Vortex Generators - Major/Minor Determinations
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2006, 01:16:18 AM »
Drew,

If you would like a decent set of guidance material, email me on the side, and I'll zap you a copy.

14CFR Part 1 (FAR 1.1) defines Major and Minor, with respect to definition as associated with Alteration and Repair.

Your Operating Limitations speak to FAR 21.93 - although this Part is applicable, by regulation, to Type Certificated products, the application of the definition of Major & Minor from this Part applies to your homebuilt, per your Operating Limitations.

I short, here is a portion of the guidance material I noted in my opening - interestingly enough, this originated out the Portland FSDO a few years ago, and is titled, "Nortwest Mountain Region - Guide to Aircraft Alterations":

201. MAJOR VS. MINOR ALTERATIONS

a. The definition of major alteration in FAR 1 is: “Major Alteration” means an alteration not listed in the
aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications-

(1). That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness;

 or

(2). That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

b. This definition is reasonably clear except the meaning of “appreciably” and the phrase “...or other qualities affecting airworthiness...”. In this regard, major alteration is considered to include any alteration
which as a result of malfunction or improper accomplishment could:

(1). Preclude continued safe flight and landing in any type operation for which the aircraft is approved;

or

(2). Adversely affect the safety of crew or passengers.

c. A minor alteration is defined as any alteration other that major.

202. DISCUSSION

a. For practical purposes, alterations and changes to type design have the same definition. Part 43, appendix A, provides a listing of product alterations classified as major alterations. This list is not and cannot be all-inclusive. Anyone proposing to alter or approve an alteration to a type certificated product must make a judgement whether the alteration is major or minor. The definition in FAR 1 serves as the foundation to make this judgement. As noted in paragraph 201, the difficulty in applying these definitions is determining the meaning of “appreciable” and “other qualities affecting airworthiness”.

-snip-

c. “Appreciable effect” and other “qualities affecting airworthiness” must be considered for the proposed alteration. Webster’s 9th New Collegiate Dictionary definition of appreciable is “capable of being valued or estimated”. Thus any effect that could be valued or estimated would be appreciable. Appreciable is the value of such measurable effect.

-snip-

f. Performance. Aircraft performance is determined primarily by the difference in the aircraft’s available thrust and the aircraft’s aerodynamic drag in a given flight condition. Any alteration to the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller that may affect thrust, drag, or other changes that may affect the airflow over the aircraft, is likely to affect performance. If experience or accepted guidelines have demonstrated that the alteration (such as a small antenna installation) does not produce a measurable effect on performance, then the alteration is minor with regard to performance.

-snip-

h. Flight characteristics are similar to and closely related to aircraft performance.  Thus, any alteration that may produce such an effect, such as a change in the length or width of flight controls or power, is a major alteration.


So, in providing my advice to Dave, I used the guidance from Paragraphs (f) and (h), above.  In my experience, either paragraph could make me make a Major determination for the VG addition.  The big key, for me, is in Paragraph  (h):  "Any measurable change to thrust or drag that affects performance is also likely to affect flight characteristics and requires engineering flight test for evaluation".   Would you, upon putting VGs on your canard, do dedicated and well-documented engineering flight test(s)?  I'd hope so, especially since your airplane is a one-off, not-duplicated-exactly-anywhere, non-Type Certificated air machine.  Just because the VGs worked marvelously on 'ol what's-his-name's Long-EZ, does not absolutely guarantee they will work the same on 'ol what's-his-face's Long-EZ.  The fact that you NEED to flight test, in order to determine what the airplane's new handling/performance characteristics are, would drive me to a Major determination.  Again, Dave's FSDO deemed it a Minor, and again, if you done told the Feds everything, and they reach a conclusion, that'd be it for me...  ;)

So, wheelpants.  Here's my take, from past personal experience.

When I flew my first VariEze, I opted out of installing the wheelpants.  Figured I get to then "next winter".  At Copperstate 1995, Gary Hertzler gently chided me on "dragging those draggy wheels all the way from Seattle to Phoenix".  Having the Master admonish me like that, was a life-changing event...  But I digress in my shame from 10 years ago...

Upon installing the pants, the FSDO said I was OK to proceed, without a new C of A, but that I should still flight test (which is what I planned to do anyway).  Yee-haw!  8 knots more poop on account of the pants.  Flight test also showed that I ran out of forward trim above 135 knots - the reduced pitch trim requirement of the airplane on account of the wheelpant installation required collateral changes in the pitch trim springs.  Did the wheelpants have an appreciable effect?  Yes - Higher cruise speed, and requirement to re-rig the pitch trim system.  A seemingly innocuous change, that I would still classify as a Major change.

I have to deal, literally, with Major/Minor determinations every day at work.  They are not all black/white cut or dry.  Some are, but some are more insidious.  In the homebuilt realm, I prefer the cautious/conservative route, primarily (again) because we are not dealing with airplanes of established Type Design with associated Type Certification.

Enuf, sez I.  I have an Eze in the garage awaiting more meddling.

Hope this adds benefit, and was not too long and hideous to read.

Nitey-night,

-Joe Person
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
VariEze N79JN
Bothell, WA  (KPAE)
Joe Person
VariEze N79JN
Cozy #879 Under Construction
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
Bothell, WA (KPAE)

Offline maprather

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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2006, 05:39:11 PM »
Wait a minute everybody...  Let's not get too far down this path here.  There are potentially some risks involved with VG installed incorrectly, and I haven't seen much talk about that in this thread, though it has been discussed elsewhere at length...

Someone talked about wanting more low airspeed canard pitch authority, and hence installed VG's on their canard at the 50% chord line.  Sounds great on the surface.  However, the 'unstallable' safety of our airplanes depends on maintaining the relationship in the stall angle of attack between the canard and the main wing.  The canard must reach its critical AOA prior to the wing.  If you modify the airframe such that the main wing stalls at the same time or before the canard, unfavorable slow flight characteristics are likely - deep stall, snap-roll type departure from controlled flight may result - likely worst case when at the rear-limit of CG.

Installing VGs at the 50% chord line (or forward) may increase the maxAOA of an airfoil by delaying the onset of airflow seperation (which defines a stall).  Thus, if you install VGs at the 50% chordline on the canard only, you have increased the likelihood of having unfavorable stall/lowspeed characteristics.  

There are a few scenarios that I can imagine where it might useful to try installing VGs at (ahead of) the 50% chord line.  One is if you also install VGs on the main wing, improving its stall margin - to retain the original relationship between the canard and main wing.

Another scenario is if you only operate the aircraft with the CG forward of the published range.  If you are always nose heavy because of pilot weight, or some other pecularity in construction, installing VGs on the canard (only) might be a reasonable bandaid to improve elevator authority.  Doing so would require qualifying a new allowable CG range which only be applicable only to that airframe.  Qualifying the aircraft would be just like CG envelope flights that are done on a new aircraft. Operating the aircraft with the CG aft of the location increases the likelihood of departure from controlled flight.

I suggest that those that have canard (elevator) authority problems at low speed, those problems are because something about the aircraft is meaningfully not constructed according to the plans.  As mentioned above, running out of "up" elevator is likely caused by operating beyond the forward edge of the published CG.  My experience flying canards is that at no time have I experienced inadequate up elevator, but have less authority the further the CG is forward.  Raising the nose often does not arrest descent (sink).  The only way to arrest descent is to add power, or have enough altitude to trade for airspeed, and then initiate another level-off.

VGs placed correctly to alleviate rain trim changes should have no effect on up elevator authority when in slow flight.  When correctly placed, the VG's turbulate the air in an area which is often stagnant enough to allow the formation of water droplets.  These water droplets alter the trim of the canard - causing the nose to pitch up or down.  Disrupting the pooling of water on the trailing edge of the canard reduces/eliminates this behavior.

Finally, I'd pick VGs as a last resort.  They make the airplane "prickly" to be around - sharp edges to catch your hands and knuckles, and which snag the cleaning rag its near..  I'd try turbulator tape, or possibly carefully masking a section of the canard trailing edge (to make it look neat) and applying some kind of surface roughening treatment.  Maybe just sanding the area uniformly, or applying some kind of crackle/spatter finish.  It might be effective to apply a matte paint finish.  Anything to re-energize the thickend boundary layer where those big water drops are hanging out.  Just keep the water from beading up there.  VGs seem like a sledghammer approach to the problem.

Sorry for the length of this...


Matt-