Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: EZRider on February 23, 2007, 05:42:24 PM
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: EZRider on February 23, 2007, 05:42:24 PM
I am planning on oil heat for the Longez. I plan to put the oil cooler in the hell hole. Does anyone have an idea for a blower motor, besides Waiter's 1982 rabbit blower motor. Waiter's 10 amp circuit braker seems a bit much for this installation. I'm looking for a motor that will be do the job,but with minimum power requirements.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on February 24, 2007, 12:38:24 AM
Hey,
Glennbob here. I'm planning oil heat too. I plan to put the second oil cooler under the thigh support for the rear passenger, although the hell hole does seem like a viable option. I don't think you need a 10 amp breaker for the blower though. If you can find out how many watts a given blower fan draws, you can more accurately acertain the proper amperage draw. Go to : http://www.csgnetwork.com/ohmslaw.html This link will give you the formula. You just plug in the numbers and it will give you the correct amperage draw. 10 amps seems a little excessive to me, although I'm just shooting from the hip. I haven't actually looked at this. One way to tell is to peruse the junk yard and look at the fuse panels on different cars. The fuse panel usually lists the amperage for the heater blower motor.
Also, be sure to close every possible nook and cranny that leaks in the front of the plane, especially where the elelvator control tubes enter the fuselage. This will go far to keeping you warm.
Warm regards, Glennbob
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Waiter on February 24, 2007, 11:07:58 AM
With my mods, I'm also going to put my heater in the rear seat thigh support. Not exactly sure how, but thats my plan!
As for electrons.
Just because theres a 10 amp breaker, doesn't mean the device is drawing 9.999 amps. A 7.5 amp breaker would probably be OK, however, I think a 5 amp breaker would be prone to false tripping (the blower draws about 5 amps, depending on speed and load).
The formula for Current (I) is;
I = E/R
I=Current, E=Voltage, R=Resistance
Keep in mind that this is a static formula and doesn't take into motor load and motor speed.
Remember, The breaker isn't protecting the device, its protecting the wiring. The wiring is capable of safely supporting 10 amps (probably more like 20amps, depending on distance).
I also figure in what breakers I have on hand. In the above example, I most likely had a hand full of 10 amp breakers. IF I would have had a hand full of 7.5 amps breakers, I probably would have used one of them.
When I select a breaker size, I first determine the maximum load that will be placed on the circuit. If its small i.e less than 10 amps, I generally double the wire size required and the breaker size. As the load increases, I'll generally do a factor of 1/2, again, make sure the breaker pops before the wiring deteriorates.
Waiter
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: EZRider on February 24, 2007, 03:40:53 PM
Thanks for all the input. I thought that sometime in the past someone mentioned a fan that would fit in the hell hole and was pretty efficent.
I will take a look at the thigh support area, however it appears I have more room in the hell hole.
I will keep looking
Title: heat
Post by: Charles Davis on February 24, 2007, 10:23:44 PM
You might want to use a 3" Turbo Bilge Blower from West Marine.
They weigh almost nothing, draw little amps. 12v.
Go to www.westmarine.com and search for Blower, Turbo Bilge 3IN.
Manufacturer is Attwood. Mfg Part #1733-4, West Marine PN: 594002
Cost is about $34.00
Suggest you set this up to blow, not suck the air so the blower stays cool.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: EZRider on February 24, 2007, 11:04:04 PM
Thanks Charlie. I ordered one. I will run some tests on it before I do the installation. I will let everyone know how it works.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on February 25, 2007, 02:16:55 AM
Don,
Let me know how you come out with that blower motor. I'd be interested to see how much cfm it has and if the speed can be varied.
Glennbob
Title: Attwood Turbo Specs
Post by: Charles Davis on February 25, 2007, 09:37:02 AM
Here are the specs:
Patented in-line design – provides ventilation for engine compartments, galleys, bilges, and heads. Mounting feet allow vertical or horizontal installation in confined spaces. Install with #10 fasteners. Individual carton includes 2 tie straps. All are CE certified. 16-gauge tinned and caulked copper wire leads with optional MP1 molded rubber connectors. New improved 3" design includes:
* 145 CFM Open Flow * 100 CFM In System Flow * 2.7 Amps * 3" hose (I.D.) * Nickel-plated motor can for corrosion resistance * Stiffening ribs to reduce housing distortion * Motor cap to seal wires and motor for water resistance
Max Dimensions: 5.5L x 5.063W x 3.625H
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Waiter on February 25, 2007, 12:15:34 PM
I looked at these, My question would be, can they provide enough pressure and volumn to push the air through a heat exchanger. I guess at $33, its cheap enough to do a couple experiments.
Waiter
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on February 28, 2007, 01:43:28 AM
Waiter, If the fan doesn't work for the heat application, . . . shoot . . .you could always use it on my sailboat ! ! ! = )
Glennbob
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: EZRider on March 01, 2007, 07:50:11 PM
I recieved the 3" blower motor. It is well built, however I decided that 145 CFM open system may not be enough. I have ordered a 4" blower that is rated at 250 CFM open system. I will provide an update when I compare the two in a mocked-up closed system
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: EZRider on March 20, 2007, 11:08:48 PM
I have mocked up the oil heat system for the hell-hole installation using a Atwood turbo 3000 marine blower. Based on the mockup I am convinced it will provide sufficent air movement and heat. Anyone who would like pictures of the system mockup contact me at Vette164@msn.com.
Title: Oil heat
Post by: EZRider on March 21, 2007, 11:19:56 PM
The pictures are on my website under miscellaneous.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Lowlevldevl on March 22, 2007, 07:06:25 AM
Hi Don, Thanks for sending the pics. Your mock-up looks pretty good to me. Something that isn't explained though. How do you turn this system on and off. I live in the tropics and when I need extra oil cooling the cockpit is already quite warm. If a system like this was always on it would be unbearably hot. Is there some way to dump the heated air overboard? I think Waiters nose mounted system had this feature. Perhaps this system is simply not suitable for my environment. :( Cheers, Don
Title: Oil heat
Post by: EZRider on March 22, 2007, 08:46:58 PM
This system does not have an overboard dump designed in. It could be motified to accommadate this.
Title: oil heat
Post by: Charles Davis on March 23, 2007, 12:14:27 PM
Our thought is to have two oil coolers.
The first would provide heat in the cockpit when the fan is running. When the blower is off, no heat is dumped into the cockpit.
The second oil cooler is located aft of the firewall.
There is no fresh air intake for the cabin heat oil cooler. It recirculates air in the cockpit.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Lowlevldevl on March 23, 2007, 09:08:48 PM
I can see the merit in that. Hot oil will still be circulating through the cooler will it not and will therefore be putting off a lot of radiant heat?
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Dave in Eugene on March 24, 2007, 09:43:29 PM
Guys... I was thinking about you when I was driving... you do realize that it the drivers feet that are going to freeze right...? Not sure that a Hell Hole installation is going to keep your toes on your feet...
I have flown the west at 10,000+ in February and my body was fine...My sweet heart in back was asleep and groovey in the back...but my feet were blocks-o-ice...okay... I was dressed in ski clothes.
Issue happily solved with electric socks...motorcycle quality, wired in on a switch...expandable too with pants, jackets, gloves etc.... I am so happy to have this solved... Thinking about putting a 12 volt socket for the GIB so that there would be the option of a 12 volt electric blanket to keep her really happy.
Good luck... wishing you the best....
Dave
Title: oil heat
Post by: EZRider on March 24, 2007, 11:08:19 PM
I can always buy the electric socks. Half the fun is experimenting with this stuff.
Title: keeping feet warm
Post by: Charles Davis on March 25, 2007, 09:46:40 AM
Our idea is to have the Blower push the hot air through scat tubing. There will be one exit near the passengers feet. The other will exitin in the nose near the pilots feet.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Dave in Eugene on March 25, 2007, 10:53:00 AM
sounds good.
Dave
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 08, 2007, 12:09:38 AM
Don,
I see the way you have your oil cooler mounted in the hell hole. A couple of questions / problems. I have my fuel line going through the middle. No problem, ..I can easily move that. However, . . my largest concern is moving air into the intake fan from the cabin, . .and moving the heated air to the cabin.
Intake : If you draw from the hole behind the rear cushion, won't there be a lot of resistance to air flow ? Where to draw cool (cabin) air from.
Exhaust : The small holes (4) in the rear bulkhead are already quite full of hoses and wires etc. Is there enough room to run two scat hoses out ? Do you plan to cut some holes in the rear bulkhead ?
I'm at this point now. Gotta get heat in there. (Next job to tackle )
Glennbob
Title: Oil heat
Post by: EZRider on April 08, 2007, 09:53:51 AM
Glennbob I know it is hard to see on by website, but the intake will be just behind the hole in the reaseat. I will draw air from the radiate heated air in the hellhole and l leave some openings through the rear seat hidden by the armrests, which will recirculate the cabin air.
Title: oil heat
Post by: EZRider on April 09, 2007, 10:46:27 PM
Glennbob, I put a better picture on my website under miscellaneous showing the blower location.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 09, 2007, 11:21:55 PM
Don,
I think your system is going to work just fine ! ! I plan on putting a " T " in the return line from the cockpit heat oil cooler and a valve simular to the fuel select valve on the supply side of the cockpit oil cooler. That way, I can turn off the oil flow in the summer so the GIB won't get so hot and turn it on in the winter when I need it. If my oil temps are too low in the winter, I'll close off the engine oil cooler with a baffle.
I have decided to sacrifice a little rear pass. floor space and am mounting my second oil cooler and fan in front of the rear thigh support. I'm blowing air rearward into the thigh support and it circulates out forward on the other side through the second oil cooler. I have yet to build the shroud for transfer to scat to the pilot feet but I'm plannin' on toasty toes ! ! I got a real shock today. Just " stopped in " to a boat repair shop and they had a 4" Attwood blower SITTING ON THE SHELF ! ! I was happy as a clam and bought it and am now fabricating it in ! !
No time tonight, but I'll send an email to anyone who'd like to see pics of my arrangement. Just drop me an email ! !
Glennbob
Title: oil heat
Post by: Charles Davis on April 11, 2007, 12:09:22 PM
Interesting idea about a valve to shut off the oil heat in summer.
Can we kick that idea around?
On the plus side, it seems desireable to be able to shut off oil heat in the summer.
But, in the summer at 10,000 ft, it can still get quite cold.
Adding a valve and hose to circumvent the cabin oil heat adds more failure points in the system.
What I was thinking was to highly insulate the cabin oil cooler. Run the oil heat through that cooler first.
If the fan isn't running, there should be no air moving accross this cooler. The inside of this box would get hot (let's say, as hot as the engine oil) but hopefully little/none would be felt by the passenger.
That is my biggest concern. Can I make a box that will tolerate and contain the heat when the fan is off.
Great thread: What is your opinion on these issues?
Title: oil heat
Post by: EZRider on April 11, 2007, 07:26:30 PM
I hadn't considered insulating the area. Possibly directing outside air through the Hellhole during the summer might be less complicated and accomplish the same thing. I am not sure the GIB would feel the heat since the foam and glass back seat plus padding would be a lot of insullation.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 12, 2007, 12:33:24 AM
Gentlemen,
I realize an oil valve might be more failure points, but if it's mounted correctly, . .I don't think it'd be too great a concern. I plan on mounting the valve in the hell hole. That way, if it gets too cold in the summer, the GIB could still access the valve and turn on the heat.
Even though well insulated and with no air movement, my guess is that it might still get uncomfortably warm for the GIB during the summer. Remember the clear canopy with the sun beating on you and then the 200 degree oil in the cooler.
If you'd like pics of my set - up, send me an email.
Glennbob.
P.S. I don't have the oil lines or valve set up yet.
Title: oil heat
Post by: EZRider on April 12, 2007, 09:58:40 PM
Glennbob I would like to have pictures but don't have your email address
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 13, 2007, 12:06:42 AM
Don,
My email address is : ezskyboy@hughes.net
Went to the junk yard today to get a fan switch for my heater blower motor. I specified that I wanted a rotating, not sliding switch with the first position being " off ". That took a little looking. (Many are sliders.)
Found the switch off a late model Corsica or some such. As I was walking back, I noticed there were a lot of wires out of it. Seven to be exact. The dude at the yard said, " yeah, it's just a switch. You need resistors to make the different speeds. " This switch had 5 speeds and 6 positions. When we got back to the office, he handed me a small panel about the size of a small matchbox that had some pretty massive coil resistors. " This is what you'll need too " he said. I put the VOM to it and found 3 different ohm levels. With the first being " off " and the last being no resistance, this gives me 5 different speed settings on the switch. The switch has 6 so I'll just make the last two the same. I tried it with the blower and it works great. But the resistor block gets a little warm.
I'm planning to mount it somewhere in the rollover structure. I'll send you the pics as soon as you send me an email asking for them.
Glennbob
Title: fan control
Post by: Charles Davis on April 13, 2007, 08:38:32 AM
I've been thinking about fan speed control too.
I thought of putting in a 3-way switch: OFF - LO - HI
Another idea was to just have on/off. You might regulate the heat by having a mechanical damper at the exhaust end of the scat tubing.
Another idea would be to find a solid state fan control (one using a transistor) rather than a resistor, that might weigh less. I have not investigated this yet.
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Waiter on April 13, 2007, 09:13:02 AM
If you use these dropping resistors.
These resistors get very hot. Auto manufactures sometimes place the resistors in the heater intake plenum. This provides sufficient cooling for the resistors.
Waiter
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 14, 2007, 03:19:47 AM
I can see that these resistors could get a little warm. I can still hold it in my hand when it's on the slowest speed, but I think it would be a grand idea to put the resistors in the intake plenum to cool them.
Don,
I can't attach pictures here. You'll have to send me an email so I can respond to you with pictures attached.
ezskyboy@hughes.net
Glennbob
P. S. Just received my Trio autopilot today. Yeehaw ! ! Am I tickled ! !
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 21, 2007, 11:32:44 PM
Change of plans.
After buying a fuel valve to use as a shut off to turn off the cabin heat in the summer, . .the valve was very heavy. I started to think about not switching at all and keeping the second cooler " in line " all the time. I thought about the fact that cars have their heater cores on all the time with hot water running through them, so I think I'll go with plan B and just plumb the oil cooler in line full time. This will eliminate the possibility of disrupting the critical oil flow to the engine, and make the system a tad lighter.
What do you guys think about using aluminum tubing for the oil pressure to the forward oil cooler ? Is it safe enough? or should I use steel lines ? I could stub the fittings through the firewall and use braided hose from there to the engine.
Glennbob
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Waiter on April 22, 2007, 06:51:06 AM
I'm doing a short run from the firewall to the rear seat thigh support.
I'm still up in the air weather to use tube or hose.
Tube will work OK, I use 5052-0 for the hydraulics on my landing gear, and it gets up to 1200 psi.
My only thoughts on tube is the surface heat, could reach 250 - 275 deg F If I do decide to use tube, I'll wrap it with something.
Two nice things about hose;
1) It does offer some insulating quantity so the outer surface may not be 250-275deg.
2) the hose fittings are pretty much fool proof.
I'm steering toward the tube, mainly because I can insulate it (it needs to travel right next to my sump tank)
Waiter
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 22, 2007, 11:40:11 PM
Waiter
Where can I get the tube ? Spruce ? Can I just flare the ends and use flare fittings ?
Glennbob
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: Waiter on April 23, 2007, 07:37:58 AM
I'm doing this from memory, and I have CRS, so double check!
1/4 tube = AN4 3/8 tube = AN6 1/2 tube = AN8
ACS, Wicks, all sell it. Make sure you get 5052.
You probably want 3/8 tube. 1/2 tube starts getting difficult to work with.
When you flare it, make sure your flare tool is correct. Most of the Automotive store "el Cheepo" are 45 deg. AN flares are 38 deg.
Check around I usually barrow a good one (most EAA chapters own one) or take my tubes over to the Toledo Aviation School and use theirs.
A couple things to watch for:
1) Debur, then sand the cut edges smooth with 120 paper. Any sharp edges will usually split when you do the flare.
2) After you get a perfect flare, cut it off and do it over again :-(
If your like me, you probably forgot to put the sleeve on, or put it on backwards, or put the sleeve on before the nut, or put the nut on backwards, etc, etc.
Please note that this ONLY happens on the flares that are absolutely "perfect".
Waiter
Title: Oil heat
Post by: GlennBob on April 24, 2007, 12:32:47 AM
Been there, . .done that ! ! :lol:
Title: oil heat
Post by: ezeguy440ez on May 05, 2007, 04:35:56 PM
Try a bilge blower. I made my set up up in the nose I am building and SQ 2000 I have the room. I also have an oil pump that scavanges the oil at the 3 quart level. So when the pump is on it has heat to a standard heater core 94 GM the blower and the 2 way air valve I have a defrost function. anyway its low preasure. This particular system is to bulky for the longs but u can just use the blower and an oil cooler and the carb heat valve to dump the hot air over the side in the nose gear. That way you can run off the high preasure lines like waiter does. Have fun fly warm. Oh yes Also you can just pick up air from your heat muff put the blower in your hell hole and blow it up to the front through the largest scat you can wrangel in there the blower will circulate 150 cuft a minute so you will have to make a switch. A friend of mine rums this and it will drive you out and its light and easy to make. no high preasure oil lines running thru the fuselage.
Title: fan switch
Post by: ezeguy440ez on May 05, 2007, 04:38:02 PM
anyone got a good fan switch that will handle 10 amps high med low or any combo. david
Title: Oil Heat
Post by: GlennBob on May 06, 2007, 12:37:56 AM
Ezguy,
I went to the junk yard and got a heater switch from a car. This works fine as long as you remember to get the resistors that go with the switch. You must have the resistors. All the switch does is select different paths for the power. The reisistors actually slow the motor down. I got one with three different levels of resistance so, . .with full high and off, . .I have 5 speeds.
Glennbob.
P. S. Like Waiter said, . .you gotta watch the resistors. They get hot. So . .like he said, . it's a good idea to put the resistors some place where they can be cooled like in the blower intake ! !