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Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: Cougar68 on January 11, 2011, 08:12:44 PM

Title: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Cougar68 on January 11, 2011, 08:12:44 PM
Okay, maybe killed is too strong a word since so many are out there flying.  What I'm trying to understand is why there aren't more under construction these days and the popularity seems to be waning.  We now live in a land full of rivet and fly RV's when composites once seemed to be the future. 

I'm gearing up for building a Long myself and trying to figure out if maybe there's a hidden gotcha that I need to know about.  From my research it seems to be relatively simple (although time consuming) to construct, economical, fast, and most importantly it looks cool as heck sitting on the ramp.  I know after RAF folded that plans were worth their weight in gold, but I would think with the Open EZ project that we would see a rise in the number of Long's out there.

So was it the closing of RAF?  Burt announcing that he would no longer support or authorize any builder even with original plans? The price of second hand plans?  Uncertainty about the Open EZ project?  The John Denver crash?  A shift in thought that decided aluminum construction was the best way to go? (after seeing strength demos I just can't believe this one) Or is there some other reason that I'm missing?
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Linda on January 11, 2011, 08:27:28 PM
Plans are going for around $700.00 give or take a few.  That is for a new COMPLETE set. You can find them on the internet, Central States, and Canard Aviators from those individual trying to sell as they have changed there mind.
Long live the Long-EZ the best plans built plane around.
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: LongEZDaveA on January 11, 2011, 08:58:33 PM
The main thing in my opinion is the time to build.  You could probably build a few RVs out of the quick build kits in the time it takes to build a Long EZ.  Building a Long EZ is much more of a time commitment than I could imagine when I started building.  It's all worth it to me in my O-235 Long when I'm in a SARL race and pass up an RV with an O-360 in it!!!
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Bruce Hughes on January 11, 2011, 09:57:33 PM
Hi Cougar

The time required is a big factor.  Another is the possibility of making serious errors
that will haunt or kill you.  I have done over many, many things (which adds a little
weight each time).  You MUST have some expert help from other builders who know
what they are doing.   As so many pilots have a lot more experience with aluminum,
composite experts are not so abundant.   We can give you names, depending on'
where you live.   Which is ?

If properly built, the Longeze should be safer; the Longeze will take a lot of Gs.

DON'T make changes in the plans unless you are an aeronautical engineer.  I did that
and had to go back to the plan configuration every time.

Bruce Hughes   :)
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Rick Hall on January 12, 2011, 12:20:09 AM
... I'm gearing up for building a Long myself ...
  ;D  ;D
Quote
... and trying to figure out if maybe there's a hidden gotcha that I need to know about. ...

Threat of a lawsuit can cost big bux, even if the suit is w/o merit. I can't fault RAF in the least for getting out of the 'consumer' business. There's still support for canards, this forum is but one example.

1) The "spam can" boyz can tell a good rivet job from a bad one, there's even a gauge they can use to prove it. 2) Many, if not all, of the metal bits come pre/match drilled from the factory, assembly is often "Insert tab A into slot B"...

A) How can you tell a good fiberglass layup from a bad one, there is no gauge. B) Some people are allergic to epoxy, others have no desire to work with cloth/foam/resin.

Rick
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Cougar68 on January 12, 2011, 03:23:17 PM
So I guess it seems that the opinion is the time commitment is too off putting?  Not suprising really with today's microwave society.  At least I'll know going in that I'll end up with a superior plane on the back side.  :D

BTW, I'm in Smyrna, TN just south of Nashville.  Getting ready to join up to the CSA and order the backissues of the newsletter.  Read all of the CP's cover to cover twice and starting to make the required changes in the plans.  Really excited about building!
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Bruce Hughes on January 12, 2011, 08:56:04 PM
OK  We know where you are.....   When you get the CSA directory you can see who is
close by WITH A FLYING AIRPLANE.   Also look up Curt Smith (I forgot which state but
I think he is in S. Illinois).  He is a CFI and has a Cozy.  He will charge but it is a chance
to get some stick time.

A lot of people have built good airplanes a lot faster than I developed my project.  If
you learn how to do CORRECT fiberglass work, yours will be light enough.

I believe there is a state rep. for TN.   I don't have my newsletters as I am away from
home.  Look around page 20-24.

You might contact Valerie Harris.  I believe she is TN.  She and her husband have a
build/repair business so you could learn a lot from them.  She can show you some
really BAD composite work.   :(

Bruce Hughes   :)
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Rick Hall on January 13, 2011, 02:13:18 AM
So I guess it seems that the opinion is the time commitment is too off putting? 
I dunnow. I think if you compare a RV kit to one of our canards, the build times are similar... about 2,000 hours. But you can buy pre-built sub assemblies for an RV. Other than AeroCanard parts, a canard is mostly built from pictures/text on paper

Also occurred to me, you'll never see a canard builder building in his/her Sunday duds. And there's times a canard builder will just let the phone ring, sometimes it's difficult to take a few minutes/hours off a procedure.
Quote
BTW, I'm in Smyrna, TN just south of Nashville. ...

Falls of Rough State Resort Park (KY), AKA: 2i3, AKA: CSA Rough River Canard Fly-in. End of September, be there, total canard immersion. Total. 25th anniversary this year too, should be a big event.

Rick
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Cougar68 on January 13, 2011, 04:03:42 AM
Falls of Rough State Resort Park (KY), AKA: 2i3, AKA: CSA Rough River Canard Fly-in. End of September, be there, total canard immersion. Total. 25th anniversary this year too, should be a big event.

My wife and son came up there with me this past year.  The decision maker wanted to get up close and personal with a Long before she was willing to turn me loose.  Even with the cold and rain on Saturday she had a blast and was literally giddy about the idea of us flying around in something that looked so incredibly cool.  We'll definitely make the return trip for the next one!
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Rick Hall on January 13, 2011, 04:43:14 AM
My wife and son came up there with me this past year. ...

Oh man, I missed ya! I was the rude obnoxious guy on the motor scooter. I had the patent on gin&tonic under the circus tent at night, and flapped my gums a lot during the Sam/Dave show Saturday evening. Balding, 5'8", glasses, ... Hard to miss ;)

Ya, I look forward to chatting wit ya! 25th anniversary of the fly-in this year, shaping up to be a stellar event :)

Rick
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Bill James on January 15, 2011, 10:52:15 PM
Not the answer to your question, just an observation on the perceived numbers of EZs.
It’s not a landslide, but I can’t help but notice the number of VariEzes still being built out there.
And the number of VariEze guys that have a LongEZ or Cozy coming together in a back corner of their hangar.
This year at RR there was a very interesting and enjoyable group of VariEze guys there, still flying or cooking on some burner or another, flying their Vari regularly, or too busy with ‘something’ to get out and fly as often as they want to.
And if you are active and flying your canard plane much, you are probably getting plenty of contacts from new builders or rebuilders.
In October I put out a tongue in cheek report on a friend with the oldest VariEze that still didn’t quite make it to RR this past year. It was inspired by the number of guys that are still mixing epoxy and dreaming of first flight.
Just an observation…  :) 
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Jon Matcho on October 11, 2014, 08:03:42 AM
The Open-EZ project was mentioned in this post.  The Open-EZ project is alive and well, however, please see this very important post regarding the Open-EZ Templates:  http://www.canardzone.com/forum/topic/20540-important-update-regarding-open-ez-rev-5-templates/
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Dricke on October 12, 2014, 01:37:36 PM
I bougt a Long ez project about 4 years ago and life got in the way, I am shocked at just how dead the Long ez is, I have had it up for sale for about three of those years since I got it, even offered it at half what I have in in it and found absolutely no interest in it, been considering breaking down to what parts I can sell chopping it up and hauling to dump and free up valuable shop space
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Dricke on October 12, 2014, 10:47:36 PM
If you messaged me about the project I can't respond because of the verification codes send me a email address I can respond to
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: patchntx on October 12, 2014, 11:51:08 PM
I have spoken to a few people wanting to start a LEZ or find an abandoned project. The problem is often cost. I wouldn't expect that if I threw in the towel and gave up building my Cozy that I would sell it for more than 30% of what I have in it. Market value is a long way from build cost in any of the experimental aircraft.

In the last six months there have been half dozen flying VEZ under $20K, one flying LEZ Under $20K and several more under $30K. Plus all the standard priced LEZ and Cozy's on the market. The cheapest way to build a plane right now might be to buy a used one. It really devalues the non flying projects when there are that many flying examples on the market.
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Bill James on October 14, 2014, 10:27:18 PM
Last Friday a spectacular VariEze flew a flawless first flight. The airplane started life several years ago in our hangar. Then the new owner spent a couple of years going through the plane. The detailed prep for the first flight covered several months. He endured several deliberate delays, patiently attending to minor glitches, gently nudging the aircraft and himself to readiness.  He called after the first flight with a couple of questions that he eventually pretty well answered himself. I declared it an official holiday in his name and got him to describe the indications, a great way to savor celebrating the big event. I hear from several other closet VariEze drivers pretty regularly.

Going back to your original questions;
I never requested help from RAF.
Seems that finding plans and parts and help all kinda fell into place once i started building. However, for the fifteen years I had the plans but hadn’t started building, I felt totally isolated, not being able to find or even see an Eze. When I did see a few at the Kerrville fly-in the pilots seemed too busy to notice me. I understand that now and suggest that I would and do totally welcome anyone to butt into our rampant discussions on the ramp. Just elbow your way in.

Though initially isolated, once I jumped in and started building, everything changed. The Internet was in its infancy then but they saw my name in the CSA roster as a new member and VariEze builder and started showing up. Lots of advice was offered on outdated parts, what kind of epoxy to use, some very pointed questions and answers on a few critical things – the self-policing thing - and then back to the light hearted fun and games. But you know, if they hadn’t come by, I would have figured out a way to get it done. Today, with the access to information…  BTW, any builder MUST read the first few CPs, as mentioned in the instructions. It took me three months going through all that to be ready to start building. If you don’t want to do that, well, you know….
So much for my personal experience on your questions.     

A few other thoughts,
So how is it owning any airplane, Eze or factory built?
One friend flies the heck out of his factory airplane. Every week he picks up and then returns his grandson two hours away. Once a month he flies way north for business. Then they fly out on a family vacation trip every few weeks or months. Actually his real airplane has been in annual for over three years with bad cylinders, now in a squabble with the engine company. So he bought another four seater in the interim.

Another friend pays to have his factory plane maintained while he barely flies it, wishing he still had his homebuilt.

Several friends have a partially built (non-eze) project in their hangar, untouched for several years.

Other friends have partially restored motorcycles and rusty antique coca-cola ice boxes sitting in honored places in their garage waiting for their special touch, untouched for several years. Several friends have partially restored cars, untouched for years.

The thought is, airplanes take time and attention, and life gets in the way of other things besides LongEZs.

Back to Ezes,
years ago I used to return from Eze fly-ins depressed because I felt I could never do what those guys had done. That “financial/time-required” gap is still there, but now it has shifted to when taxiing by a hangar secluding a sleek two-place turbine or such. But you know, in a way, I didn't do what those guys had done. Because of the personality of the plane, the gap is fairly painless especially after finishing up a pretty good year including the Burnet Texas GIG, Burall’s Colorado Springs fly-in, Oshkosh, Rough River, a very interesting flight home from RR, visits to see new grand-kids, and a few “That Was Fun” sunset runs for good measure. I tried but cant capture here what it means to spend time with some really special people... or the flights over some really special places....

For practicality, observations on the positives and negatives on design or time to build should probably include ramp time at these events. Standing on the ramp at Rough River I saw the usual new crop of beautiful Cozys, four Defiants i think, the beauty and efficiency of the LongEZ per Dave Adams and his endless builder rides, and our unsuccessful effort to get all seven VariEzes and twenty or so VEze drivers/builders in attendance in one spot for a picture. Next year.

While building the VariEze there were several times when there was no time or no money. The plane waited.
In recent years, with fifteen grandkids, we have gone to over a hundred baseball and soccer games a year. Last Saturday we watched the local soccer games here in the morning and then flew 1.5 hrs to Tulsa for two more soccer games.
When I was building and ran out of time or money, the plane sat there patiently and waited for me. It is sitting there waiting for me now. It’s a beautiful thing.

Great treasures are often buried under a thicket of challenges, designed for you… on purpose.
Bill James
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Fred N. on October 15, 2014, 01:15:13 PM
"Great treasures are often buried under a thicket of challenges, designed for you… on purpose."

Bill, you are amazing!  Builder, innovator, teacher, advisor and philosopher.  It was great to meet you at KFLY.  You fly a very impressive VEZ.  You've taken us with you more than once, right here in this forum.  I've loved it all.  When I finally met you, you are just like that in person.

I purchased a LEZ in 1993 from a fellow who had not long to live.  It was not the best I'd seen by a longshot, BUT, the main gear retracted.  I got it from him and flew it for a year, when the engine shelled out  in flight.  I turned for the home airport and came down about 10 miles short.  At about 100' above touchdown, this power line appeared in my front view indicating about 60 KIAS.  Monday a.m. quarterbacks have criticized me for not "ducking under".  I traded what IAS I had left for a 100' or so of level flight before the high rate of descent occurred.  The plane touched down hard.  My retractable main gear and the nose gear failed.

The damages other than that were negligible (scraped belly and top delamination of the wing skins,  lower cowl destroyed).  I was surprised at just how tough the LEZ is.  It had to sit for 7 years while I completed the rebuild of a certificated plane.  I now had 2 planes to rebuild. 

I was able to start on the rebuild in 2002.  Getting the new gear built and in place was morale building.  It could roll around on wheels again.  During the interim, rotary motors came into consideration because of a few pioneers who'd actually installed them in airplanes.  (My shelled out O-320 had, significant tinkering done to it to produce 200 Hp plus.)  The Mazda was advertised as capable of that power or more with supercharging.  To shorten the story, in 2004 I purchased a new RX8 motor and turbo.  I did get it mounted, but the design issues were overwhelming.  I got a 0 SMOH IO-320 and it is now mounted.  All the damages have been repaired and it has the first coat of primer.  I am doing a few improvements such as an oil cooler in front to warm my cold feet after 1:00 hours in flight.

I'm not a builder.  I am a rebuilder.  This is my 4th rebuild.  They take longer than a scratch build in MY opinion.  Projects are worse than a rebuild.  Duplication of parts already in the project happens too much in rebuilds or 2nd, 3rd, & 4th project takeovers.  I think your success in building a wonderful airplane is marvelous inspiration to all who see, listen and read.  The pay-off is exactly what you say in flying it after struggling through the build.

I reject the idea that "the LEZ is killed".  It is part of the evolution of the VEZ of which you possess one of the finest.  There are really quite a few of them and derivatives out there flying.  RV, Glassair, and Lancair are easier to do, but they are "just another plane" and not that unique.

Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: dorr on October 26, 2014, 11:34:10 PM
The Cozy III tends to be held down by the price of the cheapest Cozy IV, just as the Varieze prices are held down by the cheaper Long EZs.  I keep track of prices and we have more near $60,000 Long EZs now than ever before - there were years, not so long ago when only Dave Lind's plane was offered at $60,000.  The O-320s often go for $45,000 and above. 

I think it takes about 2500 hours to build a Long EZ, but more to build a lot of the kits out there.  The RV fast builds are pretty fast, but the final cost is much higher too. 

I keep track of unused Long EZ plans and lately I've found about 4 times more than I did any year in the last 10...so maybe that is a return to more building.  There are fast builders from scratch recently - Mullins, for example, and I keep finding builders still plodding along from the original offering of plans by Rutan.  We have a lot of support, lists of people who can give a ride, virtually all the parts are available just as my club had when we were building 100 Long EZs in Western half of Los Angeles...  There is simply nothing like the canards...

Beagle 949-939-1479(Cell) West Coast time.
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: Radioflyer on October 27, 2014, 08:57:25 AM
I don't really believe the Long Ez is as "dead" as is made out here. Significant number of plans were sold (thousand +), significant numbers have been completed and flown (700 +) , and significant numbers have  languished in construction or after being built. I believe it is these languished projects that more often you see being sold for cheap, although I have also seen an occasional true flightworthy bargain.

Even in its hey day, though, the design was "unique". One has to be somewhat educated in its special features for it to be truly appreciated. That is already a barrier to many tradionalists. The design was always more expensive in time and materials than metal airplanes, and that is even more of a factor today considering the poor state of the GA economy. Also, tandem seating is not preferred by most.

Unlike the ubiquitous RVs and true for even the Cozy Mk IV, the Long Ez is not being promulgated by anyone. In fact the design was abandoned due to unwarranted legal issues. The charismatic leaders of the type are now retired. Nevertheless, the plane is still being built, has a loyal following, and is still active in several forums. Even though the design is 40 years old, it still offers great performance and modern aerodynamics. By all accounts, this year's gatherings, such as at Oshkosh and Rough River, have all been well populated by the type.   Long live the Long Ez.
Title: Re: What killed the Long EZ?
Post by: dorr on November 12, 2014, 05:19:16 PM
I've seen an uptick in people looking for Long EZ plans - partly because some countries don't allow projects from other countries under their homebuilding rules. 

Whenever an American comes to me for Long EZ plans I send them an economic argument that suggests that a project will be much cheaper (and quicker) to get a flying airplane compared to paying for parts.

I keep lists of Long EZ projects and I hope I have the one mentioned above.

Beagle