Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: N210GW on December 13, 2005, 11:05:44 AM
Title: cabin heat
Post by: N210GW on December 13, 2005, 11:05:44 AM
I would like to know if muff heat is worth trying on a long ez. I have seen several post stating that it was dificult to get the air to flow forward. Dont realy want to deal with the complexity of oil cooler supplied heat. Concidering electric.
Opinions welcome 210GW
Title: cabin heat
Post by: rglos on December 13, 2005, 11:48:05 AM
Been there done that.
If someone finds a good way, I would like to know.
By the time the air got up front it was not warm enough to make a difference.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on December 13, 2005, 12:41:56 PM
The one in my Longez did not work worth a crap so I took it off. The one in my Cozy works very well. It is the standard muff used for the cozy. Basically is aluminum sheet wrapped around the two pipes on the right side and attached with worm clamps. The outlet takes it to a mixer valve at the firewall. From the mixer, I can take in cold cowl air right next to the naca or I can take in heated air from the pipes---or whatever mixture I want----or I can shut it off altogether. The mixer valve is not standard Cozy. Since I don't have fresh air feeding the muff, I always open a cabin vent whenever I have the heat on. The heat works great-----without the mixer valve, it was working too good.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Waiter on December 13, 2005, 03:22:05 PM
My experience with the heat muff was mostly cold. I never really had "HEAT" until I installed the oil heat system.
Look at my web site under ARTICLES/OIL HEAT.
www.iflyez.com
Waiter
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Snappy on December 14, 2005, 11:16:35 AM
For now, I use Gerbing electric (12v) socks and snow pants. That keeps your feet and legs warm. A normal jacket and nomex gloves complete the ensemble...........It's hard to be really cold when your feet are warm and toasty.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on December 14, 2005, 12:34:17 PM
In my Longez for cold weather flying, I put the chemical heaters in my socks (buy them places like K-mart---in the hunting/fishing section). I never wore the heated pants. But if I had the canard taped up, chemical heaters in my socks, jeans shirt and a jacket, I would be pretty good in the cockpit (especially with the sun shining) even though the cabin temp may be in the low 40s.
I agree---heated feet make all the difference in the world.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: deuskid on December 14, 2005, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: "Drew"
<snip>... I can take in cold cowl air right next to the naca or I can take in heated air from the pipes---or whatever mixture I want----or I can shut it off altogether....
Ok this is too weird... First I have to re-register [which I did this morn identically to that which I did on the 11th].. and I see posts from the LongEZ thread to which I just responded gone... and then this morning... I asked this question that follows and that post is gone [so I'm posting it again]..:
sorry for the obvious newbie q? but ... what is a naca?
thanks,
John
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Juan Rivera on December 14, 2005, 06:35:43 PM
I use the gerbing heated clothing also, socks, pants and jacket, the version made to go under a jacket is more than enough, the version made to be worn on the outside of your clothing is too bulky. maybe I will get the electric gloves this year. everything plugs together and a panel mounted controller lets you adjust the temperature.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Snappy on December 14, 2005, 08:17:40 PM
I flew for 1.1 hrs today in 14f degrees at the surface. Sunny day, so cockpit temps were 40 - 42. Gerbing socks, snow pants and flight jacket with nomex gloves and never felt the cold. At night, I recommend all of the above with heated gloves and you're good. No need to get the electric jacket and pants because you have no air movement in the cockpit. The Gerbing equipment is built for motorcycles and is overkill for us EZ driversunless you are operating at the North Pole .
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on December 14, 2005, 09:16:52 PM
<snip>sorry for the obvious newbie q? but ... what is a naca?<snip>
The "naca" is the submerged inlet used to cool the engine. Naca style scoops are used in a variety of low drag applications. My Cozy has 3 Naca scoops---2 small ones for cabin cooling---and 1 large one for the engine.
As an aside, I planned and chased the first Tactical Tomahawk (and hand flew too!---guess that makes me the first Tactical Tomahawk "pilot"). One of the features of the older style Tomahawk was its drop down "P-51" style air inlet. The new TacToms have submerged Naca inlets----as well as a bunch of other new stuff.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Kilo42 on December 14, 2005, 10:05:38 PM
My Long has a heater that I think would work great, but it only gets its air from inside the engine compartment.
Where would be ga ood place to tap into some ram air to get more heated air pushed forward?
Kilo42
Title: cabin heat
Post by: GlennBob on December 30, 2005, 02:06:54 AM
I cannot speak from experience since I have none, but I'm in the same boat. I want to add heat. Consider these two items. Exhaust gas temps are around 1400 degrees ! ! Oil temps are around 350 degrees. Which would you rather use ? Drawbacks : If you get an oil leak, you could loose your engine ! ! If you get an exhaust leak, (in the exchanger) you could get carbon monoxide poisoning. You can get detectors for this rather inexpensively. Oil retains heat better than air would going to the front, but you could insulate the hose too. I'm going to try a heat muff since my wife would never fly with me if it's not comfortable ! ! ( not to mention I like being comfortable too ! ! )
Glennbob
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on December 30, 2005, 10:17:23 AM
When I have the heat on (muff), I always have a fresh air vent blowing in my face. Plus I have a carbon monoxide detector too.
Title: Cabin Heat
Post by: strake99 on January 15, 2006, 10:12:59 PM
I tried a heat muff system on my Long-EZ. It did not work at all. I got next to no warm air up front. Running a heat muff system for cabin heat in a Long-EZ is difficult for several reasons:
1. The narrow width of the fuselage restricts the size of ducting that can be used. In my case the largest size usable was 1.25 inch SCAT 2. SCAT tubing, because of it's irregular internal contours, is a high-drag means of conveying air. A powerful fan or pump is required to overcome the drag and pull or push the air up to the front of the plane 3. The long air run to the front will result in sigificant heat losses from the warm air en route
If you add the reality of physics that the heat energy capacity of oil is much larger than air, then it is easy to see why it is difficult to get a heat muff system to work in a tandem canard pusher. I intend to fit a nose oil cooler system at the end of this year.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: maprather on January 20, 2006, 02:20:59 PM
Hello strake99...
Have you ever done any instrumentation work to determine the pressure difference between the cabin and the engine compartment where the inlet to the muff is (on your particular airplane)? I know you abandoned the effort, but I have heard of a few people that have had some success with the muff system, and I wonder why it works on some planes and not others. I believe that any leaks around the elevator will raise cabin pressure, possibly above that of the engine comparment.
To do the instrumentation work, you can either employ a water manometer, or an airspeed indicator. Run a length of tube from the area in the engine compartment where the heat muff is to wherever your instrument is located, and if using the ASI, connect it the pitot input, and leave the static input open (vents to the cabin). Go fly at various airspeeds, and record the readings from the ASI. If the heat muff area is actually at higher pressure, then you'll get good readings. Otherwise, you'll have to connect the pressure line to the static side of the ASI, and then you'll get readings of how much higher the cabin pressure is than the heat muff (and that will positively tell you why the muff doesn't work).
The manometer is nice because it reads plus or minus (+/-) pressure, whereas the ASI only reads plus pressure. The manometer is cheap, but you may spill water in the cabin... :)
Heat muffs work well on front engine airplanes because run is short, and the muffler and SCAT are big, but also because cabin pressure is low compared to ambient, and engine compartment pressures.. That gets the air to flow the right direction.
Regards,
Matt-
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on January 20, 2006, 05:42:50 PM
In my Cozy, I am getting real good heat coming up front----even with the cabin vents opened up. For what it is worth, my nose gear, elevator tubes, and canard are sealed up very well.
The muff I am using is the standard Cozy muff-----wraps around the two pipes on the right side and pumps out more than adequate heat
Title: cabin heat
Post by: davidschuck on January 24, 2006, 08:00:36 PM
Take a look at this and let me know what you think of it. I came across it while out shopping and thought of this thread. It's a very small heater designed for the rear seat of a car. It's 12V and uses 120 watts. I'm not sure if it will work for all, but if you're running an alternator you may have the capacity. Like I said, let me know your thoughts.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on January 24, 2006, 08:41:07 PM
I tried something very much like that in my Longez. Made too much electrical noise. You can probably figure out ways to filter it out though. For the most part, I was looking for a way to keep my wife warm in the back seat. In the end, I used a 12 volt electric blanket (car blanket) that did pretty good.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: davidschuck on January 26, 2006, 10:00:44 PM
Drew, Did you use the factory supplied wiring or did you attempt to rewire it with something shielded. I'm just curious if you tried anything to eliminate the noise, and I assume you meant radio noise. I think I'll try it this weekend with shielded wire. I'll attempt a before and after. I'll post what I find. BTW How does the 10 amps that this draws compare to the heated blankets, gloves, socks and other devices everyone has used.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Drew on January 27, 2006, 07:03:53 AM
I had a cig lighter socket in the backseat without shielded wire. Plugged in the as bought heater into the socket. Radio noise is what I was talking about. My wife was fine with the blanket. I have seen many others talk good about the heated clothes. For me, as long as my feet were warm, I was pretty good. I usually used the chemical inserts that you put in your shoes.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: N210GW on January 27, 2006, 08:59:45 AM
I installed an electric heater using the guts from a 12V automotive unit. It puts out about 400 Watts. To prevent the electrical noise I used a aircraft quality EGG rotron vane axial fan. The fan that comes with the unit would need to be filtered. As far as performance 400 watts doesn't go very far. It will keep my feet from freezing but that's about it. I will probably replace it with a good muff heat system if I can work out the flow problems.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Kilo42 on February 14, 2006, 10:36:03 PM
OK, here's what I got planned. I read something about this in the archives. For some reason the archives are not working on my computer right now. Anyway, I am going to mount an inline duct blower at the end of my heater exhaust tube in the nose. Here is a link to the duct blower:
It's a 3" blower that I will mount to the side of the fuselage and I will fit a tapered end to fit onto the heater duct. The blower will be located below my right leg. I then plan on installing a variable speed switch on my instrument panel to control fan speed and therefore heat output. This will also allow for a heated cabin while taxiing.
Hopefully this will succesfully "PULL" heated air foward into the cabin.
I will report to the board as the project unfolds.
Kilo42 Long-Ez N81HM
Title: cabin heat
Post by: Glider pilot on February 16, 2006, 09:38:30 AM
Let us know how it worked or did not. I tried one with almost no improvement in air flow. that blower can't have any restriction or it stops blowing. I don't think you will need to very the speed try it before you install the switch. If you want a blower I'll send you one for free, that how good it worked.
Title: cabin heat
Post by: maprather on February 23, 2006, 05:54:32 PM
I wouldn't bother with the speed controller until you have determined effectiveness at the full-bore setting. Just use a toggle switch to see if it works in flight, and on cold days. Worst case scenario is that you can toggle the switch off and on as you get too cold/hot..