IFR Advice

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Offline Dave in Eugene

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IFR Advice
« on: January 24, 2006, 04:29:22 AM »
I am currently dedicating a lot of my non-committed time to study for the IFR and would love advice from anyone who has tackled this body of information and flys IFR in a canard.

I wonder if I can train in my Long? I do have an ILS but no ADF of DME...but it seems like I could fake that with my GPS.

Thanks,

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline wvshoem

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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2006, 09:42:15 AM »
You don’t need an ADF or DME to legally fly IFR. You only need the ground based nav equipment appropriate for the flight you are conducting. So, if you intend to navigate using VOR’s to an airport and then shoot an ILS or VOR approach, you’re good. If the approach requires DME or and ADF, you’re not good.

As far as you GPS goes, unless it is an IFR certified, panel mount unit it can only be used for reference, and cannot substitute for DME or an ADF. Although even the most basic handheld GPS’s are 100 times more accurate than ANY ADF, you best not get caught shooting an NDB approach without and ADF on board.

Your airplane will have to have a pitot static test every two years and you will have to do a VOR check and document it every 30 days.

As far as training in a Long EZ goes, I’m still not clear on that. I believe the instructor must be able to safely fly the airplane from the back seat which, to me means a full set of flight controls (stick, throttle, and basic instruments).

I currently own a Cherokee 235 and maintain my instrument currency/proficiency in it. My Long EZ should be flying this summer and I fully intend to fly it in instrument conditions. It will be very well equipped to do so. What I’m not entirely clear about is what equipment must be in the back seat (besides a safety pilot) to allow me to fly under the hood.

I would be very interested to hear what others are doing to stay current in their Longs.

William

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2006, 10:54:00 AM »
William,

Thanks for your reply. my intention for "faking it" with gps in terms of using it as I would an ADF or DME would only be for training pruposes with a safety pilot (instructor) in the back. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks,

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline maprather

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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2006, 12:08:27 PM »
Hi Dave,

If you can find an instructor who is willing, you can do your training in the LongEz, though I have to say that I think instrument training is easier done with the instructor sitting beside you, for a couple of reasons.

The first is that much of instrument flying is about precisely controlling the airplane - pitch, yaw, roll, airspeed, and altitude.  I believe most instructors would want/need to be able to see all of the flight instruments.  I believe that you would want them to be able to see them also.  It helps him (her?) point out things that you might be missing.  If you would like to be able to get some actual IMC experience (which I recommend), I can't imagine an instructor riding in the back while IMC without having a full panel to look at.  Maybe your plane has the full complement for GIB?

I also wonder how your instructor would setup unusual attitude exercises without access to all of the flight controls, to include throttle, trim, and rudder.  Especially as a model for having a hosed AP, having the instructor mess with the trim wheel is a good exercise.

Another issue to contend with is dealing with all of the paperwork in the cockpit.  If every flight goes according to plan, the paperwork is pretty easy.  If your instructor, the plane, ATC, or weather starts throwing you curve balls, just doing the chartfolding in the tandem cockpit could be a chore.

Now, the other side of the coin is that the LongEZ has good stability, with excellent, high altitude performance, comfort, endurance, and range.  This is a HUGE benefit for actually using the plane as an IFR platform, and for doing x-country work.  Lots of margin when considering alternates.  The high-ish wingloading, and strong dihedral effect means that the airplane handles well in turbulence.  I'd put a LongEZ against an RV4 any day, as far as hands-free flying.  I have done most of my IFR training in my C150.  It's okay, but it lacks range-endurance, comfort, high altitude performance, and it bounces like a cork.

Would you intend to checkride in the LongEZ?  That may prove to be a challenge as well, for most of the reasons above.  Have to find a DE that would ride in the back..

Finally, you asked about ADF/DME.  For the checkride, you'll have to demonstrate precision and non-precision approaches.  The VOR/GS allows this, so no problem there.  The issue I see is that you will get very bored flying just those two types of approaches.  If you're anything like me, I could fly the basic VOR/GS approaches to PTS standards after about 5 hours under the hood.  Having more equipment means you can learn more approaches, which is useful and fun.  

My airplane has an ADF, but no GPS or DME...  Using a non-approach GPS to learn other types of approaches can be effective, but I think you miss out on some of the useful things to be learned by having the actual box in the airplane.  For instance, ADFs wander, and have limited range.  Identifying the station letters everytime you fly the approach is an important habit to develop.  Wind correction can sometimes be a challenge with the ADF. I have faked it with a handheld GPS to fly DME required approaches, and used the handheld to assist in situational awareness on NDB approaches.  The handheld almost makes it too easy..  :)  There may be times when you want to be able to fly IFR in an airplane which doesn't have a GPS.  So, you can do what you are suggesting, but I think you are short-changing yourself in the end.


Good luck!

Matt-

Offline Drew

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 06:12:14 PM »
I went to Sheble's and picked up my ticket in 10 days.  At Sheble's as well as others, you are imersed in the environment for every waking moment---either flying the sim, flying the airplane, or studying for the oral.  Doing the quick inst ticket, you will much of your time in sims (as much as the regs allow)

The Longez may be a stable platform but is no C172 in stability.  I was very comfortable flying IFR in the Long----and any military pilot will be comfortable too.  People transitioning from C-172s to Longs may be a little uncomfortable.  The C-172 can tolerate 20 sec or so of hands off time to check a chart or something---the Longez will only tolerate a couple of seconds or so before getting off heading (unless you have a wingleveler or autopilot of course).

Bottom line, I believe that doing the 10 day course is more economical.  Having said that, the "short-course" may not be for all people.  For instance, you don't want to show up without understanding how to figure out holding procedures.  Having being immersed in aviation as a Naval Flight Officer for many years, doing a course like this was a piece of cake
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline marc22181

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IFR training in a long
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 07:04:06 PM »
Your question is interesting and while a long ez is a perfectly reasonable IFR platform (especially so with an autopilot) it does pose several challanges.  For one thing, there is not a great deal of room to spread out charts and plates, but planning can overcome that.  Another issue is training.  As a CFII, I must admit that I wouldn't be comfortable a an instructor or safety pilot in the back seat.  I don't think the visibility is sufficient, nor do I think the standard stick only would allow me to take control sufficient to prevent problems in many circumstances.  If for example, you were nearing ILS minimums and another aircraft cut in front, I wouldn't have a throttle to provide maneuvering power.  I wouldn't have any instrumentation, so I couldn't even evaluate your performance on the glidepath or localizer.  I wouldn't have comms with ATC and so on.  Suggest you get your training in a more roomy aircraft with full dual controls for the instructor.  Also, you can just sit in the cockpit and work out chart storage, map folding and IFR checklist proceedures.  A lot can be done on the ground.  If you feel completely comfortable on VFR cross country flights and comfortable in IFR in a spam can, then start doing some IFR flights in VMC.  After that, you're good to go.
Marc

Offline Drew

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 08:59:09 PM »
To more or less follow what Marc said...

2 tricks for Longez IFR:
1.  Work out your chart/plate storage/usage issues (I have a post titled map folding---which is crucial for one of these small cockpits)
2.  Determine your specific longez rpm-speed-attitude gouge.  Don't guess how much throttle you need for your IFR hold, descent, climb, etc.  RPMs, speeds, and VSIs should all be knowns----set your RPM/attitude for the required condition.  Small deviations in rpm will probably need to be made from here----but if you don't know where to start, you will constantly be chasing them
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 09:25:07 AM »
I am about to donate to John and Martha for the king ifr dvd set. Anybody want to sell theirs?

Thanks,

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Drew

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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 10:53:27 AM »
The IFR course from the Kings is only good for passing the IFR written.  If you are good studying the concepts in book form and taking a lot of practice tests (you can do these online too), you don't need the King course.

At Sheble's you spend lots of time in the sim.  All flights were partial panel (no attitude and no DG).  You get quite good at timed turns (there is all kinds of good gouge on this).  The only full panel approach I did while I was there was during my checkride---kind of weird--it was my worst approach while I was there----I guess I had too much information available!!   :o
Drew Swenson
Cozy N171ML

Offline Dave in Eugene

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 09:06:37 PM »
Thanks for all the well written opinions. I appreciate it. I am very excited to continue learning as a pilot. Time to go study.

Dave
408 EZ Long EZ 0235-L2C / Great American 62X62 / IFR / GU canard

Offline Jack

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2006, 04:38:07 AM »
Quote from: "Dave in Eugene"
Thanks for all the well written opinions. I appreciate it. I am very excited to continue learning as a pilot. Time to go study.

Dave


One major consideration flying IMC in an EZ is icing.  If you don't have pitot heat some bad karma can result.  I have down 180s when some ice started sticking to my canopy.  

It's a pretty decent IFR platform no doubt.  I picked up my Navy wings back in 75 and we went right into IFR training almost from the start. So flying off the gauges is second nature to me.

It rides the bumps in the sky pretty well too. Having flown with an RV-4 often in formation, his stiff wing puppy doesn't take the bumps as well.

Cheers;

Jack