Hangar Flying

Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: Labpilot on November 23, 2008, 07:12:27 PM

Title: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on November 23, 2008, 07:12:27 PM

Hi everybody, another newbe entering the world of canards. I am preparing to begin construction of a Long EZ in about a month. I live in Alaska and I have a small heated room to start making parts in. If all goes as planed I will have a garage to rent to assemble the parts in when I get that far. I am ordering the plans from Terf. Would somebody please answer a couple of questions for me?

Can a person use the cheep plastic pumps that Aircraft Spruce sells for measuring out epoxies or do I need to purchase that $200+ machine to get good layups.
Which modern epoxies is the best to use.
Are there any special tools that I need to purchase to make this go easier?
Has anybody built an exterior step that retracts for back seat boarding of the aircraft?
Are the luggage pods removable when not in use?

Thank you,
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: BruceS on November 23, 2008, 07:48:01 PM

[quote author=Labpilot link=topic=4890.msg13204#msg13204 date=1227489147
Can a person use the cheep plastic pumps that Aircraft Spruce sells for measuring out epoxies or do I need to purchase that $200+ machine to get good layups.[/quote]

You do not need the $200 epoxy pump. I've used a small scale for measuring my ratios with Aeropoxy for a couple of years now. However, on the large layups like wings and the really small layups I wish I had a pump. Pushing one lever and have it come out the right ratios in one fell swoop sounds like an ideal way to make glassing go smoother and faster. I use the original cans that the Aeropoxy comes in, you can get inexpensive pumps that screw right on to the lids, cost any where from $6-$11 depending on the size of can.

[/quote]Which modern epoxies is the best to use.[/quote]

I think that's a loaded question.  :) A lot of people seem to be using MGS, it's a lot more expensive than say Aeropoxy. I'd read the archives, there are about as many different opinions on this subject as there are epoxies.
 

[/quote]Are there any special tools that I need to purchase to make this go easier?[/quote]

One tool I would not go without and that's the Fein, cuts cured glass likes its butter. A few knockoffs of that tool are just starting to come out and they're cheaper too. Not sure about the quality of the off brands. I'd say there are two tools, the other, electric scissors, makes cutting glass a breeze. I used the old method (manual scissors) for a couple of years, finally splurged the $80 (I think) on a really good pair and I wouldn't go back for the world.

[/quote]Are the luggage pods removable when not in use?[/quote]

Yes they are.

Welcome to the wonderful world of building your own aircraft Jeff!

Bruce

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: flyingwaldo on November 23, 2008, 09:05:43 PM

Have not built but have helped....
Buy the real pump, put it in an insulated and heated box when necessary, use a small block under the lever to make smaller batches, don't underestimate the zillion batches of epoxy you need to make up to build a whole airplane and the need for accuracy.  I use the little pumps for making small parts and a scale for itty bitty stuff.
You are looking at a huge project, don't skimp on a key and crucial accuracy component of that project!  You can wiegh it all but the big pump will save a lot of time.  It should be calibrated sometimes I'm told...

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Brett795 on November 24, 2008, 11:27:12 AM

I am just finishing a Long, but when I did my layups on it and the Varieze, I just used the mini pumps that screw to the can.  A lot cheaper, and I had no problems with it. It may have taken a little longer, but not much.  Most of the time though, I had the girlfriend getting it for me as I needed it.  Most batches I did were about 3-4 pumps at a time.  These pump sell for about $11 from Aircraft Spruce. Just have to make sure you get the pump for the kind of Resin/Hardners.
I have never done the scaled way, but I have used the bigger pumps when I went to school to get my A&P.  No matter what system you use, there is a big advantage of keeping it in a well heated area. I lined one of my cabnets in the garage w/ foam and put in a light.  I had about $10 estimated into it.
Next summer I plan to start building a Cozy and I probably will use the cheap pumps on that.
Good Luck,

Brett

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on November 24, 2008, 08:42:45 PM

Thanks for the advice. I feel like a fish out of water but I will get things going. I am waiting till after Christmas to start then I am jumping in with both feet. I know it’s a long trip to the end but I think it will be fun. I have had my pilots licence since 1984. I had owned a Grumman Yankee but always wanted an aircraft that I could work on. I am sure that I will have plenty of questions later.
Thanks again.
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on November 24, 2008, 11:49:12 PM

Hi Jeff

First: My Longeze has not flown yet.    I did not build the major structural parts.
Also I am a Biologist (well a microbiologist) and know little about engineering.   
So I am not much of an expert.

Having said that, I have worked on the project for many years and have made
many of the mistakes that can be made.

I don't think you need the step for the rear passenger; generally he or she will
get in while the nose is on the ground.

You will need the usual screwdrivers, open jaw wrenches, socket wrenches, and
the Dremel tool.   Some are NOT made by Dremel but you will know what I mean.
You need to get a better tool than Dremel makes (don't ask me for the company
name - I never had a better Dremel but they must be out there).   I have worn
out about 5 of those.

Eventually you will need a few crow's foot wrenches (like an open jaw wrench
without the handle).   Do NOT get the type will 2 little teeth to hold it in place-
you would have to file those off.   You are years away from needing those.
You will use them with a torque wrench.   

The SmartTool was/is a very useful tool for me.   I got one from Harbor Freight for
about half the usual price but Harbor Freight does not carry them now, I believe.
Sears lists the 24" tool for around $110.   Mine was less than half that.   It will
read in degrees slope which is VERY useful in determining if the elevators
or ailerons are swinging correctly.

An electric drill is essential.   

Eventually a crimping tool for electrical connectors will be essential, but you are
years away from that.   I am not joking; years away.   Get one that double crimps
for 3 different sizes of connectors (red, blue, yellow).   Do NOT get the cheap junk
that ASSC sells for crimping.

Good luck.

Bruce Hughes   :)

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Brett795 on November 25, 2008, 07:51:16 AM

Like Bruce stated, the SmartTool is a VERY good tool to have.  Speaking of Sears and with Christmas time coming around, they will be having sales on the tools. Make a list now and give it to your family.  I was at Sears last night and they had an off brand of the SmartTool- Craftsman 24 in. Digital LaserTrack Level but it was on sale (here in Ft. Wayne, Indiana) for around $45.
I talked to another friend of mine who is also a Canard builder, but he insists on using the more expensive Pump systems and his dad says to use the scale method. He also has a lot of very nice equiptment and a very nice shop but the end results all look the same. So I guess it's just builder preference.
Brett

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Drew on November 25, 2008, 08:44:16 PM

In regards to the question about the step for the back seat.  Bruce is right----that with electric nose gear, you can just put your pax in the back the stand up the plane----might be a little hard without electric nose gear.

No reason to put a step for the back---passenger steps on THE step, sits on longeron/strake, then slides feet into the back.  Any step that you are talking about would more or less be under the strake----which would not be useful.

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on November 25, 2008, 09:02:33 PM

Thanks for the information. I never have seen anybody get into the back seat on a long ez. My wife has very short legs and we are not very young any more ;). How ever it sounds like a step would not be necessary. Thanks for the tool advice. In the small town that I live in, in Alaska we only have a watered down Sears. The Sears up here hardly has anything but I can order tools. I cant wait to get started!
Thanks again,
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on November 26, 2008, 06:40:32 PM

Hi Jeff

I had a few more thoughts.  I use two parts holders for nuts, washers, etc.   That gives me 100
small drawers for stuff.   I REALLY need 150 drawers; you will need some parts that you had
not planned to use.  Odd nuts because they are NOT FINE THREAD.  Washers large enough for the
AN 6 or An8 bolts.   Etc. 

A thought on bolt types and sizes:   I used a lot of  MS35206 machine screws.   Also some of
the flat head machine screws.   If you get some corrosion, these become hard to remove.
I now use AN3 bolts anyplace that I can.

I had some #8 machine screws.   These, and the washers and nuts, take up several drawers.
That is silly; I use #10 machine screws now and mainly the AN3 bolts.   You WILL have to
use some #8 brass screws for many of the instruments.

Bruce :)
 

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on November 27, 2008, 04:02:15 PM

Thank you for all of the responses. I am surprised at how active this blog is. I am glad that there are people out there will to help with information. This is my first shot at building an airplane. I have done endless home improvements projects by profession, but I never built an aircraft. I am new at the blogging thing too, so if I do something not using proper blogging procedures it isn’t on purpose. I will be sending my CSA membership dues in next week to join. Any of you live in Alaska?
Thanks again
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on November 27, 2008, 06:42:05 PM

The directory (printed around the 1st of the year + or - a few days) lists 2.
Richard Dunning is in Anchorage and Wallace Long is in Juneau.   There are
also a few who previously were in CSA.  I don't know if either has a flying
airplane; neither is listed as having hours.   If I remember, I will look in the old
directories and get back to you.   

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on November 27, 2008, 11:41:51 PM

Thanks, I live in Juneau and itis a small town with no roads out (which is comon in Alaska) and it would be great if i would be so lucky to find somone in town. Anchorage is about 600 miles away but doable to see a project on the way or to talk to somone.
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on November 28, 2008, 09:57:51 AM

Call Wallace at 907-790-3460.   His mailing address is a P.O. Box.

Bruce  :)

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Bill James on December 03, 2008, 08:33:14 PM

A couple of suggestions while building-
Consider installing the front seat bulkhead at 37 degrees. I think this is from a test done in the 90s where every pilot chose this as the most comfortable angle. Slightly less angle is easier on the front neck muscles. I have an 8 degree wedge for the seatback made of the 1/2 inch console foam and one layer of BID. With a slight trim of the foam on top or bottom before glassing the seat-back could just be installed at that angle in the first place. It is a structural bulkhead so installation would be per plans. If i had done this during construction i would keep the top of the seat at the same place and move the bottom back slightly. Another person might choose the opposite and avoid minor adjustments to the belly board installation.
Consider having the canopy leading edge aft of the instrument panel. Then the top of the instrument panel can be structurally joined inside the top fuselage with corner tapes fore and aft. That adds strenth and allows an access hatch to the instruments forward of the instrument panel.
My canard cover is not attached to the canard and is a hollow storage compartment (sectional maps for the coast i am not on-in a baggie), and allows easier canard installation. Walls fore and aft of the canard cover keep things from falling inside or into the elevator tubes. Those two removable access panels plus the nose hatch are held in place by two pins (1/8 inch stainless welding rods) in plastic tubing going forward through the instrument panel and forward inside the top skin, going through the hatches along their top inside skin. All done after the fuselage nose and canopy were built. Most folks are glad they installed a rain drip rail on the lip forward of the front canopy edge. (A note here - often someone will object to having the canard cover detachable because of supposed loss of strength in the structure there. The proper concern is actually when the top area over the instrument panel is made to be removeable. Not what i am talking about. I have actually strengthened this area by tieing in the top of the instrument panel with structural corner tapes fore and aft).
I have a false floor under the front seat to get the contour i want and save cushion depth and weight.
I have one inch more leg hole width through the instrument panel. Made all of the side consoles 1/2 inch closer to the fuselage walls. The throttle fit the narrower console, the speedbrake arm fit with a shorter bolt, and the right sidestick and torque tubes also operate properly. Primary change was to remove 1/2 inch off the inside of the plywood mount for the sidestick where it mounts to the right fuselage wall. And make the torque tube hole throught the right seat bulkhead wider. The LongEZ has the fuselage wall glass to glass with the foam removed by the sidestick for more knuckle room - i have plexiglass windows. Of course, confirm acceptable operation before installing.   
These things are minor and will be a drop in the bucket compared to the months of added construction time that will be added by other simple things you will think of  :)   I filled four notebooks of ideas while waiting to build. Not using them litterally saved me a ton.
A friendly but strong encouragement - find and read "The List" in the EZ Chronicles on the home page here. Helped me fly about 8 years sooner.
Best to you-
Bill

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on December 03, 2008, 09:37:13 PM

Thanks for the information. I am going to get started on this next month. I am currently working on my work area getting it heated and building a work bench. I will start ordering materials next month.

Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on December 05, 2008, 10:44:24 PM

I can’t believe how many responses I received. That helps me build my confidence that I will be able to get some advice if I get stuck on a part of this project. I was picturing myself being on my own (thrown to the wolves) after I started. You folks are great.

Thanks
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Bill James on December 18, 2008, 10:20:31 AM

Jeff-
Since you have mentioned setting up your workshop several times, want to mention work shop heating and invite suggestions for dos and dont's. A friend used a kerosene space heater while laying up the two exterior UNI layers on the fuselage. Later when he started cutting out the speed brake the outer UNI layer started delaminating and with very little effort, peeled right off. One possible cause could have been the epoxy in the first layer starting to set up too much, but he didn't feel that was the issue. He did get several comments about the space heaters generating humidity that could cause the problem of the second layer not bonding to the first. He sanded the first layer and applied the second without further problems. Any similar experiences or solid info?

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Labpilot on December 18, 2008, 10:46:31 AM

Thanks for the input Bill. I am installing an electric baseboard heater wired into a wall thermostat and a dehumidifier; I live in Juneau Alaska which is in a rain forest. The room I am starting out in is only 12 feet by 10 feet. I am only planning on making parts here (bulkheads, canard, and winglets) and then moving to a two car garage where I will be able to continue.

Thanks
Jeff

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Linda on December 18, 2008, 09:25:03 PM

First of all you need to determine the correct epoxy for structures and for non-structure.  This is critical in wings, spars, landing gear, center section and lots of the fuselage.  The ratio of hardner to resin are very different.  I would go with those recommended by the plans as I'm not a chemist.
Good luck and be sure to join central states as its the only source for the latest news and safety stuff. Also subscribe to Canard Aviators the internet group.
EJ

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: A. Bruce Hughes on December 19, 2008, 10:11:26 AM

Hi Jeff

If you are using the 10 X 12 room for making parts, let me suggest this:
I used Aeropoxy for a lot of small parts.   I had a styrofoam box left over from
a different non-aircraft project.   I was in an open hangar with temps from
95 (August) to 20 (January).

I had bought a project which was structurally about finished.   However I had
a few small parts to make and still will be making another cowling.

I put a small electric heater with a thermostat control inside the box.   Set it
to something like 120 degrees.   Had a temp probe inside the box and an indoor;
outdoor thermometer where I could check it.   Temperature in the box turned
out to be pretty constant but I found that the heat from the fan-driven
heater would melt any of the styrofoam that it hit directly.   Had to be careful
where I pointed the heater.

Parts were put in the box and left overnight (really about 16 hours).   I made
several parts like that.   Then, one day, I had to put one part ON the airplane
on the back of the main spar.  (that part holds the oil cooler in place).   So
I took the styrofoam box apart, taped it around the area where I needed the
heat, put the part on the spar, held the part in place with clamps (hard to do)
and put the heater in the modified box.   Turned the thermostat a little lower,
just in case.   Overnight the epoxy set and is now holding an aluminum bracket
which holds the oil cooler in place.

You will be building a canard.   I don't think it would be wise to put the canard
in a box with a heater.    Check on the curing temperature for the epoxy you
are using AND the ability of the foam to withstand heat before you do any of
this.   Remember all of the parts that I was making were non-structural.   
Most of the parts had no foam, just glass.

Your canard is structural so you have to get it right.   Too much heat can
weaken or ruin it.

Bruce Hughes   :)

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Joe Person on December 21, 2008, 12:06:37 PM

Do not put a foam-cored part into a heated space that is warmer than the foam core was during glass layup.  The core must be at about the same temperature as the ambient air temperature (i.e. the correct shop temperature for layups).  If you have any nail holes in the core, you run the risk of the entrapped air in those holes expanding and "bubbling" the layup.  Keep all the parts at optimum layup temperature from well-before layups begin, through complete cure.

-Joe Person
EAA Tech Counselor 4418
VariEze N79JN
Bothell, WA  (KPAE)

Title: Re: Ready to start a new long ez aircraft
Post by: Spodman on February 14, 2009, 06:06:27 AM

Quote

I filled four notebooks of ideas while waiting to build. Not using them litterally saved me a ton.

Magnificent. Shame I read it after filling up about 2.5 notebooks...