FAA rules for buying a Long-EZ 'disassembled'

[dano]

Hello All,
  I am shopping for Long-EZ's and I've talked to one seller who wishes to sell his EZ 'disassembled' (presumably to minimize his liability). I am comfortable re-assembling the aircraft, as I have been a mechanic professionally for several years in the past. However I am not aware of what the process is after I've actually bolted the bird back together.

Presumably an A&P re-certifies the aircraft as airworthy and a new weight and balance is done. What other steps are there? What paperwork needs to be filed? I get the impression that the original owner wants me to register as the original builder after reassembling the aircraft, which doesn't sound exactly proper to me. But then I'm new at this so let me know if that's an 'accepted practice'.

Has anyone else gone through this process (buying the aircraft disassembled)? Is it common with EZ's and other homebuilts?

-- Dano

[yooper]

You would have to lie to the FAA and say you just built 51% of it.

[rglos]

I don't think the FAA cares about wheather or not you assembled  a disassembled aircraft. They care about how much work you did to build it.

I don't think the fact that he sells it disassembled to you provides him that much legal exemption from liability either.

The real issue is if he built the plane, certified it and registered it. Then you could buy the plane as an experimental, but an authorized A & P would have to do the annuals.

If it is unassembled, non certified and not registered, you have to prove to the FAA that you devoted a lot of work to finish it and show that you understand how it went together.

It is more detailed than this but I think you get the picture.

It would help if you discribed the status of the aircraft now.

Finished and flying
Certified and registered.
Built but not finished
Etc, etc

There are some really good experts on these forums that could help you in more detail.

[Waiter]

In order to register it in the Amateur Built, Experimental Class, You must present evidence that the majority of the aircraft was built for the purpose of education, etc.  The person who is selling an almost completed aircraft would need to include in the purchase, his photos, building logs, etc, that would serve as evidence, that the aircraft does indeed qualify for this class.


If "a" Builder can show (regardless of how much you built) evidence that they have an understanding of the construction and systems, this person can apply for a repairmans certificate for this particular airframe, regardless of how much they actually built.

Regardless of who owns the airframe, the person that holds the Repairmans Certificate is eligible to sign off the Periodic Inspection (annual)

Google FAA 8130.2 for licensing and certification requirements and procedures.

Waiter

[dano]

The airframe has hundreds of hours; it has flown plenty.

[Waiter]

This is a HOT topic, as we will see.

If the aircraft has already flown, and is registered, then this presents a dilemma to the original builder: They will ALWAYS be legally responsible for this aircraft, regardless of selling it as components or as a whole.

Check with EAA,  They have some documentation available that may be acceptable for the seller and buyer regarding the liability of the aircraft.

Product liability lawsuits generally pit a large corporation with megabucks, against a little old lady who has lost everything. Right or wrong, who do you think the jury will award to?? This type of legal action is rarely found in our income bracket.

Going WAY OUT to the far extreme, if I was in the Megabucks bracket, I would have the aircraft destroyed rather than sell or give it to a musuem. If it doesn't exist, there is no liability.


SIDE NOTE:

In order to license the aircraft in the "Amateur Built" class, you must present evidence that it was "Built by amateurs", i.e. photos, building logs, etc.  If the original builder is willing to supply you with these documents, then you are "good to go".  

If he's willing to provide these documents to you, then he obviously is accepting responsibility for building the plane, so why not sell you a "FLYING" plane, vs "PARTS"

ALSO,  If the sellor wants to sell parts, then the purchase price should be for parts, not a flying plane.

Waiter

.

[Drew]

I don't pretend to know anything about the law (and I am sure that we have a few lawyers who frequent this site who could speak up).  But I believe the issue (for the seller) is whether he sold the buyer an airworthy aircraft.  In the sellers mind (and probably documented) was that he sold an unairworthy aircraft.

The new owner will have to once again make it airworthy.  I don't believe that you will be able to switch names on who the builder was.  However, if there is a problem with the aircraft, and someone tries to sue the original builder, I don't know what kind of a leg they will have to stand on when the builder says (and has documentation) that he sold an unairworthy aircraft.

I have heard about some builders going beyond the dissassembly part and actually removing the wing attach bushings to truely make it unairworthy.

[Barney]

Theoretical situation:

Assume an ardent aviator learns of another stalwart flyer, a person of unlimited means (having just won a lottery) who now chooses to join the jet set and buy a surplus Lockheed F-104.  Said big $$$$$ bubba in his haste to make room in his hangar agrees to sell to the party of the first part (ardent aviator) his sterling steed, well kept, Long-EZ for ½ price, and the deal is consummated.

Our ardent aviator then launches a few weeks later, and for still unknown reasons fails to get airborne and plows through the fence at the end of his departure runway, and smacks squarely into the middle of a school bus full of third graders on a field trip to the zoo.

Ardent’s widow immediately brings a legal action against the EZ’s former owner for negligence (and whatever else her zany attorney can think of) in the construction of the EZ, in which she asserts he ultimately caused the untimely death of her beloved.  Several parents of the third graders who were in the school bus closely follow with suits of their own.

Where will deep-pockets big $$$$$ bubba be then, regardless of whether he was in any way to blame?

For how long has it been the American way to (when in trouble) sue everyone in sight, especially anyone of means?

Assuming any, even very well built, experimental aircraft when sold; who takes the bigger risk (and chance), the buyer, or the seller?

Even if big $$$$$ bubba above had had the foresight to totally disassemble the EZ in question and sell it to Ardent in pieces, what attorney would not find just cause in the aforementioned scenario to sue Bubba for both negligence in the original construction, and attempt to defeat the regulations governing the building and/or resale of an experimental aircraft?

Ah, such a conundrum.

[spy]

NOW  AVAILABLE IN ENGLISH..... :shock:

[show car motors]

ask faa what to do. i sold my lancair,i am the only person that can ever do the annual thats not an a and p. the dar man from the faa will help u to!

[rglos]

Jurys are not dumb people. Things are changing on these suits for everything.

I sat on a case where a woman after five years still wore a neck brace from an auto accident. She was not looking for megabucks but somewhere near 100k.

Her case was totally unconvincing and she just kept mouthing off. A member of the jury pointed out that giving nothing may lead to further action so we asked the judge if we could award an amount lesser than asked. The judge told us we could. We gave her $5.00.

A buyer has to understand risk assement. First to fly and then to fly in an amatuer airplane and then to fly in an amatuer plane not even built by the buyer.

This seller is trying to protect himself as much as he can but I don't think he can accomplish this by removing the wings and canard.

Heres to tort reform.

[Guest]

put the plane back together, have a A&P check your work, Have an A&P do a condition inspection on it. have him sign it off. change the registration  to your name by sending in a bill of sale and a  registration form with 10.00 dollars.its now your plane.  now since it is signed off as safe for flight, have a Long-EZ pilot fly it and check every thing for you. if all is well get a CFI to check you out for  that type of plane.  Also these forms you can get at any airport FBO office.  lets face it you did not build it , but you can work on it just as long as your work is signed off by an A&P. your yearly condition inspection will have to be signed off by an A&P also.   make lots of friends.some times these sign offs only cost a lunch.    Frank

[yooper]

Might work if he gives you the data plate and and the air worthiness certificate. Being an A&P myself I would'nt touch it with a ten foot pole.

[rglos]

Lets think about this another way. Forget the legal BS and think about safety.

It's an airplane, that you can't take for a test drive. You could put it back together but you would have nio idea how it was "rigged" ( Wing shims, incidence on wing & canard, control surface balancing etc.

This would have to be done by a 'testpilot".

Have the seller put it back together and prove that it is airworthy and controlable. If not offer him 1/2 to 1/4 of the going price. Remember he self certified the plane, the FAA did not. How can you trust his judgement if he can't show you a flying example of what he certified.

It lowers the price and makes you feel better about your purchase.

[Waiter]

Have the seller put it back together and prove that it is airworthy and controlable. If not offer him 1/2 to 1/4 of the going price. Remember he self certified the plane, the FAA did not. How can you trust his judgement if he can't show you a flying example of what he certified.

EXACTLY:
If your purchasing "parts" and not a "flying aircraft", then the price should reflect it.

IMHO, Do a good hold harmless agreement. Unless the seller is a megabuck corporation, I doublt seriously any Lawyer would waste their time with any liability actions.  If they are a megabuck Corp, I strongly suggest that they destroy the aircraft and have the remains hauled to a private smelter.


Waiter