Hangar Flying => Hangar Flying => Topic started by: Stanford Zinger on September 17, 2011, 02:44:41 PM
Title: electrial diagram
Post by: Stanford Zinger on September 17, 2011, 02:44:41 PM
Hi Guys It really stinks when you buy a Long EZ and don't have much stuff
Can someone please help me with a wireing diagram for the Long EZ My plane's wires a a total birdsnest.
Thank you Very Much
Stan
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: EZPILOT742X on September 17, 2011, 04:31:50 PM
Stan, Where are you located? I'd be happy to help you out. I've done avionics and aircraft systems wiring professionally and have worked with quite a few different EZ's. Contact me through my personal email and we can figure out what you have going on.
Chris Randall KWHP, CA x24thepilot@hotmail.com
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: av-mech on September 17, 2011, 08:09:55 PM
Stan,
If electrical is not your thing than I would take the offer for professional help. I have been working with all types of experimental aircraft for more than 20 years and I can tell you that when you don't have any kind of wiring diagram, you might as well tear it all out and start from scratch. You will drive yourself nuts trying to get it all sorted out. On the plus side....EZ electrical systems are not usually to difficult.
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: Stanford Zinger on September 17, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
Hi Arnold
Its your panel that I want to use ( if that s OK)
Thank you for the pic
I also need the entire wiring diagram for the LONG. My airplane has tons of birds nests and I woul like to redo it Side panel included
Please feeel free to call me at 631 5461 7757
Thank you and Best Regards Stan
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: av-mech on September 18, 2011, 07:01:53 AM
Stan,
I don't haved a set of Long manuals but if they are like the Vari then there is a basic (suggested) wiring diagram. Problem is that you don't have any idea if the builder did it that way or not. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. Of course if you had a diagram you could at least see if anything is as the original intenet.
Come on Long flyers let's help Stan out. Remember when you were looking for answers.........
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: BruceHughes on September 18, 2011, 12:50:09 PM
Hi Stan
I wired my Longeze and made mistakes. It was so bad that my technical advisor gave up and quit coming around. I essentially rewired the aircraft after he saw it the last time. I would not want to suggest a way to wire it. I can, however, suggest some thing to NOT do and a few TO DO.
(1) Read all of Nichol's manual twice or more. I don't know the title or how to get one but someone on here has that information. I can go out in the shop and get it for you.
(2) All end connectors must be CLAMPED or crimped on. My largest cables (to the starter) were done by a company that, fortunately, wires large boats so they have large, heavy duty crimpers. You can buy a smaller one for most work. The Seal-all crimper ($37.95) sold by ASSC is NOT a double crimp tool so I DID NOT get one. Spencer Aircraft is near me so I bought one from them. I found that I am not strong enough to use it. >:( I found a way to modify it so I can, just barely. The handles are too short. Harbor Freight sells the exact same tool for less. I do NOT recommend it as the handles are too short. Get a good crimper. The Professional crimper that ASSC sells is $134.95 so there may be better ones, cheaper somewhere. I don't know but it MUST be a double crimper for at least 3 sizes of connectors.
(3) I found that you MUST double back the wire at the end or the connector will pull off. That means that you will have little use for the end connectors with red plastic covers; the hole is too small for most wires when you double back the wire. See (4)
(4) If the tables say to use #24 wire, use #20, and the same for # 22 or #20, use bigger wire because the wire is going to be vibrating and will break.
(5) Keep ALL ground wires together in a bundle. I finally had so many wires that I had to run the bundle down the LEFT side of the fuselage. That is a problem because you must NOT interfere with other things like the air brake. Use spiral wrap.
(6) Keep all 12 V wires in a bundle. I have at least 8 to 10 of those at the pilot's right side under the armrest. Use spiral wrap
(7) Keep all sensor wires in a bundle. I have at least a dozen of those, probably 15. Use spiral wrap.
(8) Realize that you will have MANY more wires than you expected. You may add more later. Then you have to undo the spiral wrap and it is near impossible to do that.
(9) If you run all of those wires down the right side, you will not have space enough for the push rod for the elevators. Guess how I know that.
(10) Get aviation type end terminals. These are double clamped to hold the wire to avoid breaking the wire. You can also use heat shrink IN ADDITION to the double crimp end connector to further protect the wire from bending.
(11) Use only Tetzel wire; if it overheats, you will not be exposed to toxic vapors
(12) you will need a good wire-stripper. Don't get a cheap one; they will not work.
(13) Label your wires at least 3 places so you can troubleshoot later. It is required anyway. That is IN ADDITION to color coding.
(14) ASSC sells 6 colors of wire. You may need other colors as well and there are companies that well other colors; I am sorry but I don't have their names. When I wired mine, they only had white. Big PIA. I finally found a place to get color coded Tefzel wire.
(15) Put a master solenoid in to control ALL 12 V EXCEPT the starter. If you have current going through a master solenoid, then a starter solenoid, then the solenoid actually inside the starter, you have 3 points where heavy current must cross a gap. You may not get enough current to start the engine. I had to eliminate the starter solenoid and run the starter cable around the master solenoid. That means I have one solenoid instead of 3 to make/break the connection. Someday I will change that when I can find a master solenoid with the ability to carry a heavy current. I may burn up the starter if the internal solenoid hangs. SIGH
(16) The plans system to prevent takeoff with nthe canopy unlatched and landing with the nose gear up is AWFUL. You had better use it but you will have a problem when some part of it is not working correctly. I spent ENDLESS hours debugging it. I finally put a terminal block on the surface of the inside of the fuselage where I can get to it (inside the nose compartment so I cannot reach it in flight, of course). EVERY wire in the system runs to that block. Then I close the canopy (get a friend to do it and sit there while you do the check) and check voltages with throttle back vs throttle forward. Then I put a sawhorse under the fuselage and retract the nose wheel. Check voltages with throttle back and forward. ETC. If some part of the system is not working correctly, you can tell.
(17) McMaster-Carr (www.Mcmaster.com) caries some things that you can use. No minimum charge.
(18) Be sure that your engine block is grounded to the rest of the electrical system with a very flexible braid, and heavy enough. There is a lot of current running through it, at least during starting.
Bruce Hughes :)
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: BruceHughes on September 18, 2011, 05:48:26 PM
Bob Nuckolls wrote "Aeroelectric Connection".
check www.aeroelectric.com or call 316-685-8617
Bruce Hughes :)
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: Stanford Zinger on September 18, 2011, 09:50:30 PM
Hi Bruce
Thanks for the info. It's going to go a long (get it) way It 11:45 PM in New York and I just finished taking out all the old stuff What a mess.!!!!!! I am going to fabricate the 1/8" 2023 T3 new panel to put over the old one. I dicided that a glass panel is a good idea. Thanks for the help
Regards Stan
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: av-mech on September 19, 2011, 07:20:45 AM
Stan,
Stick to what you read in the book, it will serve you far better than anything else.
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: srothert on September 19, 2011, 09:48:13 AM
Stan, From a planning perspective, use a spreadsheet to list all of your electrical instruments(avionics, etc). For each instrument, list each wire and the wire size that the manufacturer recommends. That will give you an idea of the type and amount of wire to order. I used shielded wire almost exclusively because I had it in stock.
I kept all the antenna coax wires together and ran them along the length of one side of the fuselage. All the other wires (starter, alternator, temp/pressure senders) were bundled together and ran down the other side. I think this helped minimize any electrical noise. Also in the spreadsheet, I indicated the wire bundle in which each wire was located.
Steve Rothert Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: av-mech on September 19, 2011, 12:14:34 PM
Stan,
Agreed, I have all of my (two) coax wires running down the left side and all of the other power, siganl,ground wires in a bundle running down the right side. I only use shielded wire where the manufacturer calls for it. Otherwise I use MIL-W-22759/16/xx (the xx is your wire size). Your shielded wire is MIL-C-27500-xx (again wire size). For coax you can use RG-58 as a last resort but you will be doing good to use RG-400 instead. It's a little more but worth it in terms of quality.
When you order wire, most likely you will use lot's of 18-20 or 22 gauge wire for insturments, radios, engine sensors, solenoids etc....I would recommend ordering at least 300 ft of the sizes you need most. My guess would be the 20 and 22 gauge. You always need more than you think. See if you can talk Aircraft Spruce into a dealer account and you will get some discounts when you order.
Ring terminals = MS25036-xx buy the correct crimper to do the job red base collars are for 18-22 ga wire Blue base collars are for 14-16 ga
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: Stanford Zinger on September 19, 2011, 07:06:33 PM
Hi Guys
I just wanteded to thank everyone for their imput
I learned tons of stuff. I ordered my glass panel and electric nose gear today.
I guess the funds with be slim for the next few weeks.
My next step is to face the existing panel with 1/8" 2023 T 3
and paint the inside with some Zolatone
I'll stay in touch
Thanks Again Stan
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: BruceHughes on September 21, 2011, 10:03:21 AM
Hi Stan
I think you never told us where you live. There are a lot of guys who can help but where are you? If you join the CSA, you will get a directory so you can determine that yourself. See the home page of this website for the CSA. $30 is about the breakeven point for Terry and it is well worth the $30. The Oct. newsletter probably is ready to mail out or has been mailed. As a new member, you also get the earlier 2011 newsletters as well. Terry also has back issues if you want to order; I got a year or two when I joined.
Bruce Hughes :)
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: EZPILOT742X on September 21, 2011, 07:55:13 PM
Which glass panel system did you decide to go with?
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: BruceHughes on September 22, 2011, 09:33:17 AM
Hi Stan
As you are essentially starting from scratch on your wiring, consider the possibility that you probably will go to electronic ignition and remove one magneto. That gets rid of one shielded wire but creates a need for one 12 V and one ground wire. You also might consider which side of the firewall the EI will be on. Mine is in a cooler location, just behind the passenger's head. That creates a need for 4 sparkplug wires going through the firewall, as well as wiring through the firewall to the sensor coils on the proximity of the crankshaft. The sparkplug and other wires are VERY well protected from the cut edges of the firewall.
Also there are very inexpensive tachometers available. My wiring does not have to go through the firewall but does have to go up front to pilot and copilot. Actually I have 2 because the copilot has a partial panel AND control of the throttle, carb heat, and mixture.
Bruce Hughes :)
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: EZPILOT742X on September 23, 2011, 02:35:47 PM
An electronic ignition box needs to be mounted in a cool, accessible place and should NEVER be mounted on the hot side of the firewall. Also, the FlyEFII (highly recommended) and the LightSpeed ignition systems both use ignition coils, which are typically mounted where the magneto was, or on the top spine of the crankcase. Either way, the plug wires ONLY go from the ignition coils to the plugs, and are all located within the engine compartment. On the LSE system, you'll have to high-voltage coax cables, and the crank sensor wire penetrating the firewall.
Systems installations and avionics/electrical installations in our airplanes is not something to be taken lightly. Whatever you do, take care to do it right.
Chris
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: Joe Person on September 27, 2011, 01:50:45 PM
I need to comment on a few things posted on this thread:
(3) I found that you MUST double back the wire at the end or the connector will pull off. That means that you will have little use for the end connectors with red plastic covers; the hole is too small for most wires when you double back the wire. See (4)
Not true - using the properly-sized AMP (or equivalent) connector for the wire size employed does NOT require any folding of the wire to obtain correct wire CAU (Circular Area Unit). Also, it is possible to fold over a wire to install in an oversize terminal, and still fall short of achieving the necessary CAU that hits at least the minimum CAU for the terminal itself. You can end up with a not-as-good-as-it-should-be terminal installation as you might like, by eyeball-engineering here. If you don't have the wherewithall to look up the specs and requirements to make sure you can "fudge" a wire terminal installation where the terminal is "oversize", then stick to using the correct parts.
(4) If the tables say to use #24 wire, use #20, and the same for # 22 or #20, use bigger wire because the wire is going to be vibrating and will break.
Not true. 24 Gauge wire is great for certain things (audio systems, etc.). To generalize that "bigger wire will not break because it is stong enough" (under vibration) is a false premise. Properly installed, secured, strain-relieved, etc., there is NO reason that specified wire gauges cannot be employed. There are just as many circumstances, in a vibration-rich environment, that can cause a heavier-gauge wire to break, when a small-gauge wire won't.
(9) If you run all of those wires down the right side, you will not have space enough for the push rod for the elevators. Guess how I know that.
I've looked at plenty of VEZ/LEZ wire installations that have entailed wires on the right side, forward of the instrument panel. As long as correct provisions are made to secure such bundles to keep them out of the way of flight control runs, etc., there is no problem.
(13) Label your wires at least 3 places so you can troubleshoot later. It is required anyway. That is IN ADDITION to color coding.
Not required in any of the regs that apply to homebuilts, but good practice
(16) The plans system to prevent takeoff with nthe canopy unlatched and landing with the nose gear up is AWFUL. You had better use it but you will have a problem when some part of it is not working correctly. I spent ENDLESS hours debugging it. I finally put a terminal block on the surface of the inside of the fuselage where I can get to it (inside the nose compartment so I cannot reach it in flight, of course). EVERY wire in the system runs to that block. Then I close the canopy (get a friend to do it and sit there while you do the check) and check voltages with throttle back vs throttle forward. Then I put a sawhorse under the fuselage and retract the nose wheel. Check voltages with throttle back and forward. ETC. If some part of the system is not working correctly, you can tell.
Plans-built warning system works just fine, properly built & wired & installed.
Title: Re: electrial diagram
Post by: av-mech on September 27, 2011, 03:54:54 PM
Joe,
You hit the nail on the head where you wrote
"If you don't have the wherewithall to look up the specs and requirements"
I would have ended that with "then you should not be building an airplane!"
There is no black magic or special skill needed to build most any airplane but you need to stay away from guess work and listening to those who spout useless nonesense. Precision and facts are rewarded with safety and a long life.